Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[jackspratt]

My edification see's all the leftie press only repeating the same pathetic, unverified report from the UN hand wringers.

So they all - including The Times of Israel - all fit neatly and conveniently under Alex's definition of 'rags".

[AlexO]

I'll be happy to trust my instincts, guided by my experience, which have served me pretty well so far.

Just what is/are the UN HRO, the mass of the hand wringers in the UN are sitting wondering how and why they landed such a cushy number.
The UN oversaw the last real genocide in Europe, so no great track record.
Just tell everyone why you accept every published item in the Left Wing MSM without the benefit of,
any intelligent analysing .

I'll be happy to trust my instincts, guided by my experience, which have served me pretty well so far.
Keep own ass smoke blowing your up.

[rick]

Here is the summary from the Un report:-

The UN Human Rights Office today published a report on arbitrary, prolonged and incommunicado detention by Israeli authorities, affecting thousands of Palestinians since last October. The report also covers allegations of torture and other forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, including sexual abuse of women and men.

Since 7 October, thousands of Palestinians - including medical staff, patients and residents fleeing the conflict, as well as captured fighters - have been taken from Gaza to Israel, usually shackled and blindfolded. Thousands more have been detained in the West Bank and Israel. They have generally been held in secret, without being given a reason for their detention, access to a lawyer or effective judicial review, the report states.

At least 53 Palestinian detainees are known to have died in Israeli military facilities and prisons since the horrific attacks by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups against Israeli civilians on 7 October.

Quite a lot of deaths in custody. Also 113 journalists have died in Gaza. 2 were Israeli (killed on the 7th October) the other 111 by the Israelis, one just a day or two ago - the IDF claimed he was also a Hamas terrorist - nice excuse, even though he had previously detained for 12 hours and released.

As for the recent assassinations in Iran and Lebanon (countries which Israel is not officially at war with), they were targeted attacks by rockets with few civilian casualties; in Gaza, the 'targeted' attacks often use 1,000 pound bombs, with massive civilian casualties - and we only have the IDF's word for it that there was actually a Hamas target there. The IDF may say sorry when things do go completely wrong, like the attacks on aid workers, but very much a case of shoot first and ask questions later (or just claim they were Hamas anyway).

[rick]

Just thought i would check on how many assassinations Israel is believed to have committed since it's foundation. Result - 85 international killings, and about 320 in Gaza and the West bank (since 1990). Probably more than the rest of the world put together.

Israel has never been held to account for any of these.

[AlexO]

Here is the summary from the Un report:-

The UN Human Rights Office today published a report on arbitrary, prolonged and incommunicado detention by Israeli authorities, affecting thousands of Palestinians since last October. The report also covers allegations of torture and other forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, including sexual abuse of women and men.

Since 7 October, thousands of Palestinians - including medical staff, patients and residents fleeing the conflict, as well as captured fighters - have been taken from Gaza to Israel, usually shackled and blindfolded. Thousands more have been detained in the West Bank and Israel. They have generally been held in secret, without being given a reason for their detention, access to a lawyer or effective judicial review, the report states.

At least 53 Palestinian detainees are known to have died in Israeli military facilities and prisons since the horrific attacks by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups against Israeli civilians on 7 October.

Quite a lot of deaths in custody. Also 113 journalists have died in Gaza. 2 were Israeli (killed on the 7th October) the other 111 by the Israelis, one just a day or two ago - the IDF claimed he was also a Hamas terrorist - nice excuse, even though he had previously detained for 12 hours and released.

As for the recent assassinations in Iran and Lebanon (countries which Israel is not officially at war with), they were targeted attacks by rockets with few civilian casualties; in Gaza, the 'targeted' attacks often use 1,000 pound bombs, with massive civilian casualties - and we only have the IDF's word for it that there was actually a Hamas target there. The IDF may say sorry when things do go completely wrong, like the attacks on aid workers, but very much a case of shoot first and ask questions later (or just claim they were Hamas anyway).

Really?
Where is the physical evidence. No names or any other form of confirmation ever given.
Who knows that 53 Palestinians have died in captivity? The Hamas Propaganda bureau? How can that be verified?
113 journalist deaths but no names and no confirmed media outlets of who they were working for? Again no verification.
Aid worker deaths!
Once, only once has the names of Aid Workers and their military trained bodyguards demise been verified and the uproar was enormous, wonder why? Goebbels style training or just lies?
What about the other 100+ thats claimed. Why no cries of outrage naming the huge number claimed by the Hamas Propaganda Machine.
Believe me, if your in a War Zone and your being fired upon you want to survive, so firing back is perfectly okay as far most people with an ounce of common sense would do.
So why the 'shoot first' pretendy outrage? If the IDF are shooting first then maybe a case. Evidence please. Suppose that 'Wanting' to survive makes you a bad person in modern hand wringer terms.
There seems to be a determination of a certain group to absolutely believe anything the Hamas Propaganda Machine spouts out and it's not just individuals either (MSM).
Unless you can come up with filmed or other physical evidence of the outrages, not just some fantasy UN crap (interviews of released prisoners etc) go back to being outraged at something you 'can' prove which so far is absolutely zilch.

[rick]

All those journalist deaths and detainee deaths were reported and are verifiable. Most detainee deaths were 'natural causes' according to Israel, but can you trust them? As for physical evidence of outrages, one problem, Israel will not let foreign journalists or most UN staff into Gaza or prisons, so difficult to collect evidence. Which benefits Israel greatly.

The majority of deaths in Gaza are due to attacks from the air, those shooting are at practically zero risk of death. The only ones in fire fights are the infantry.

[tamada]

Nice goldfish, eh?

[jackspratt]

An update to Alex's lexicography, as it applies to Gaza, and wider.

rag Any media which prints or broadcasts something he doesn't agree with

event something that couldn't have happened

- unless he personally witnessed it

- or there is a video recording of it

- if it was reported in a rag.

[AlexO]

All those journalist deaths and detainee deaths were reported and are verifiable. Most detainee deaths were 'natural causes' according to Israel, but can you trust them? As for physical evidence of outrages, one problem, Israel will not let foreign journalists or most UN staff into Gaza or prisons, so difficult to collect evidence. Which benefits Israel greatly.

The majority of deaths in Gaza are due to attacks from the air, those shooting are at practically zero risk of death. The only ones in fire fights are the infantry.

So nothing changes.
Rick, if you are at war with a terrorist group who hides itself in the civilian population (whether by fear of reprisal or quiet support) then why not use weapons that minimise your own casualties.
Seems very clever to me.

[AlexO]

An update to Alex's lexicography, as it applies to Gaza, and wider.

rag Any media which prints or broadcasts something he doesn't agree with

event something that couldn't have happened

- unless he personally witnessed it

- or there is a video recording of it

- if it was reported in a rag.

I'll be happy to trust my instincts, guided by my experience, which have served me pretty well so far.
smoke, blow, ass, up, my, own or get someone to help.

Evidence my dear chap, evidence. Try doing it sometime. Show one iota of 'evidence' that the UN fantasy report is based on (interviews with released detainee's JEEZ) Just repeated propaganda. Genocide? Deliberate Starvation? What next?

[jackspratt]

Evidence is wasted on you, Alex.

You are either too witless to understand it, or too obdurate to accept or even consider it.

[AlexO]

Show me the evidence. Just show me the evidence, just one time.

[tamada]

More IDF fake news.

"Israel’s military has uncovered an unusually large Hamas tunnel close to the Gaza-Egypt border that is big enough for a truck to drive through.

The IDF said the three-metre-high tunnel along the so-called Philadelphia Corridor was being investigated and would later be destroyed along with other “large-scale routes” that were found. "

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... ar-latest/

[rick]

All those journalist deaths and detainee deaths were reported and are verifiable. Most detainee deaths were 'natural causes' according to Israel, but can you trust them? As for physical evidence of outrages, one problem, Israel will not let foreign journalists or most UN staff into Gaza or prisons, so difficult to collect evidence. Which benefits Israel greatly.

The majority of deaths in Gaza are due to attacks from the air, those shooting are at practically zero risk of death. The only ones in fire fights are the infantry.

So nothing changes.
Rick, if you are at war with a terrorist group who hides itself in the civilian population (whether by fear of reprisal or quiet support) then why not use weapons that minimise your own casualties.
Seems very clever to me.

It shows a disregard for civilian casualties, and then Israel wonders why the Palestinians hate them.
As for Hamas hiding in the civilian, population that is what all rebel/resistance/terrorist organisations do, because standing in a field and waving a flag, when your opponents have air power, tanks and artillery, just becomes a pointless exercise. Did the French resistance come out and fight the Germans on the field of battle? Of course not. Bombings, assassinations, ambushes only, then hide.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

All those journalist deaths and detainee deaths were reported and are verifiable. Most detainee deaths were 'natural causes' according to Israel, but can you trust them? As for physical evidence of outrages, one problem, Israel will not let foreign journalists or most UN staff into Gaza or prisons, so difficult to collect evidence. Which benefits Israel greatly.

The majority of deaths in Gaza are due to attacks from the air, those shooting are at practically zero risk of death. The only ones in fire fights are the infantry.

So nothing changes.
Rick, if you are at war with a terrorist group who hides itself in the civilian population (whether by fear of reprisal or quiet support) then why not use weapons that minimise your own casualties.
Seems very clever to me.

It shows a disregard for civilian casualties, and then Israel wonders why the Palestinians hate them.
As for Hamas hiding in the civilian, population that is what all rebel/resistance/terrorist organisations do, because standing in a field and waving a flag, when your opponents have air power, tanks and artillery, just becomes a pointless exercise. Did the French resistance come out and fight the Germans on the field of battle? Of course not. Bombings, assassinations, ambushes only, then hide.

Rick, don't you think Hamas shows a disregard for civilian casualties? Can you explain why Hamas does not permit the Palestinian civilians to use their tunnels? Surely such a humane gesture would cut down on casualties, and further win hearts and minds. Since Hamas does not do this, do the Palestinians hate Hamas? If not, maybe they should.

[jackspratt]

Rick, don't you think Hamas shows a disregard for civilian casualties? Can you explain why Hamas does not permit the Palestinian civilians to use their tunnels? Surely such a humane gesture would cut down on casualties, and further win hearts and minds. Since Hamas does not do this, do the Palestinians hate Hamas? If not, maybe they should.

One reason I can think of is that Hamas would regard the tunnel system as a strategic advantage - albeit diminishing by the day.

Opening them to civilians would immediately diminish that advantage.

We can only speculate how the Palestinian civilian population view it.

[AlexO]

It shows a disregard for civilian casualties, and then Israel wonders why the Palestinians hate them.
As for Hamas hiding in the civilian, population that is what all rebel/resistance/terrorist organisations do, because standing in a field and waving a flag, when your opponents have air power, tanks and artillery, just becomes a pointless exercise. Did the French resistance come out and fight the Germans on the field of battle? Of course not. Bombings, assassinations, ambushes only, then hide.

So you are condoning acts of terror that Hamas carry out including mass murder, rape, kidnapping, hostage murder etc.
Incidentally the French resistance did rise up and fight openly in the streets of Paris before the Allies were near.

[trekkertony]

Anyone who gives the UN any credibility after admitting at the very least, 9 of its UNRWA staff participated in the October 7 murders do so by their blind hatred of the State of Israel and its people.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/podcast-epi ... /2a2b8vunv

[Whistler]

Anyone who gives the UN any credibility after admitting at the very least, 9 of its UNRWA staff participated in the October 7 murders do so by their blind hatred of the State of Israel and its people.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/podcast-epi ... /2a2b8vunv

Did the UN employ these people knowing they were Hamas operatives? I doubt very much if it was on their resumes. Were they sleepers?

I note that as soon as they were exposed the UN agency promptly sacked them.

A slightly more balanced analysis

https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... ber-attack

[jackspratt]

From the sbs link above, and speaks for itself really:

The United Nations has sacked nine UNRWA staff members it says may have been involved in the October 7th attacks on Israel......

...... “The OIOS investigation involved the following: visits to Israel for discussions with Israeli officials and to receive and review information held by Israeli authorities; visits to Amman to obtain and review information held by UNRWA relevant to the investigation, including on UNRWA staff and UNRWA operations. However, one thing I'd like to point out is that since information used by Israeli officials to support the allegations have remained in Israeli custody, OIOS was not able to independently authenticate most of the information provided to it.”

(My emphasis)