Ukraine

[Mosquito]

Just for the full context, this is what Biden actually said last year:

You mean Mak posted a misleading video???

Say it ain't so!!!

I'm surprised and shocked!!!

[FrazeeDK]

yeah, had a freiend send me an edited portion of this that totally left out "US Crews and pilots..." Frankly, as far as I'm concerned its a "git er' done" thing. Why dribble in combat systems peicemeal. If you're going to supply Ukraine with da' good stuff, then do it. Now that they've committed giving tanks the talk in the meida is "Pentagon officials push for F-16's for Ukrain.." OK, as Yoda would say, "do it or do not.."

[Mosquito]

Slowly, to much at once might tip/kick Putin to over react and do something stupid.

Balancing act....

[FrazeeDK]

nah, its politics, "diplomacy" and wheedling the other NATO and EU members to play the same game. Look at how Germany tied themselves in knots when providing anything.. "Oh, here's the Gephardt anti-aircraft guns. Sorry we can only give you so much 35mm ammo since its from the Swiss and they won't give us permission to ship it to you..." Or the Leopard Tanks.. "You other countries with Leopards can't ship them Ukraine without our permission. We won't raise a fuss if you do but you'll be violating your agreement with us. So, ya gotta send an offiical Diplomatic Request to our FM and wait for an official permission slip..!!" Then we've got how many tank systems going? Leopard 2, Abrams, Challenger, AMX-10RC. Then IFV's Marders, Bradley's Swedish.. Man o' man what a logistical nightmare for maintenance..

[Mosquito]

Yes, agree....on politics.

IMO. Bit tip toeing around, gamesmanship, second guessing and caution......in this case it's warranted and honestly don't think it's being handled badly......considering the stakes.

[Khun Paul]

Yes, agree....on politics.

IMO. Bit tip toeing around, gamesmanship, second guessing and caution......in this case it's warranted and honestly don't think it's being handled badly......considering the stakes.

Agree , currently we have the majority of the Russian people aganst this incursion which they see as losing, by reacting to anything Putin does negatively we are winning the hearts and minds of the Russians.
However doing more than just enough may signal a switch which will change the Russians Public perception and that will then change the game plan to a possible ALL OUT war !

[mak]

Lest we forget. From a few years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNKsLlK52ss
The best part, at the end of the video it states: "To be continued". How prophetic.

[FrazeeDK]

and the western world rolled over and did nothing militarily at all. Just weak sanctions. That set the stage for the Donetsk and Luhansk "rebellions" fully supplied and supported by Russia and the Russian invasion of February 2022..

[tamada]

How has Russia been licking their wounds? Some details would be helpful for the readers

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/01/ ... ses-a80062

[Doodoo]

This is from over a year ago What is the purpose of bring this up?
Just post what is necessary

[tamada]

Good point.

How about this though?

Putin could send the troops in before the ink had dried on NATO's new members agreement with Ukraine.

Or he could turn off Europe's gas....and send the troops in anyway.

[Mosquito]

Just seen this video, and am a little disappointed in Ukraine's leadership.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqoGKEMrTu0

Last June/July they were already talking about sending Leopard 2's to Ukraine, would of figured a forward looking leadership would of already sent Soldiers to get trained on the tanks back in July 2022.
Manpower would be a poor excuse, as how hard would it of been to get 20 truck drivers or heavy equipment operators, 20 mechs, 20 senior enlisted gunners and 20 junior officers to get trained.

Even if they didn't get Leopards they'd of had 20 trained tank crews on tactics, battlefield threats and basic weapon systems.

Of course, it's possible Ukraine did start training on Leopard 2's.....and it's just not being reported.

Lesson learned ..... hopefully for F16 and other advance weapons systems Ukraine is requesting.

[tamada]

Just seen this video, and am a little disappointed in Ukraine's leadership.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqoGKEMrTu0

Last June/July they were already talking about sending Leopard 2's to Ukraine, would of figured a forward looking leadership would of already sent Soldiers to get trained on the tanks back in July 2022.
Manpower would be a poor excuse, as how hard would it of been to get 20 truck drivers or heavy equipment operators, 20 mechs, 20 senior enlisted gunners and 20 junior officers to get trained.

Even if they didn't get Leopards they'd of had 20 trained tank crews on tactics, battlefield threats and basic weapon systems.

Of course, it's possible Ukraine did start training on Leopard 2's.....and it's just not being reported.

Lesson learned ..... hopefully for F16 and other advance weapons systems Ukraine is requesting.

Last June/July the Ukrainian military had lost a chunk of sovereign territory while NATO, the EU and various allies were still flapping like headless chooks. So I would excuse their military for not having the foresight to pull a hundred guys aside to train and operate tanks that may not have been optimally deployed and lost in battle.

When you look at the sheer numbers on each side, boots on the ground and materiel and the fact they didn't roll over like Putin expected, there's bugger all wrong with the Ukraine's military leadership.

F16's? Only after Russia capitulates. And only after Ukraine is a NATO member.

[Mosquito]

By mid-March 2022 Ukraine forces were more on the offensive then defensive.

By June 2022 Ukraine forces were already pushing Russian forces out of occupied areas, and were on the offensive.

[tamada]

By mid-March 2022 Ukraine forces were more on the offensive then defensive.

By June 2022 Ukraine forces were already pushing Russian forces out of occupied areas, and were on the offensive.

And they didn't have the full backing of NATO and their allies.

They still don't.

Having a dozen Leopard II tanks in the field last summer would not have been any sort of game changer. Absolutely none whatsoever.

[Mosquito]

By mid-March 2022 Ukraine forces were more on the offensive then defensive.

By June 2022 Ukraine forces were already pushing Russian forces out of occupied areas, and were on the offensive.

And they didn't have the full backing of NATO and their allies.

They still don't.

Having a dozen Leopard II tanks in the field last summer would not have been any sort of game changer. Absolutely none whatsoever.

Qualify full backing of NATO??

Even prior to the invasion both US and NATO supported / provided military assistance to Ukraine to help protect it's sovereignty.....that's even prior to Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea in NATO's case.

TimeLine:
Feb 2022 Russia invades Ukraine, Ukraine on the defensive.
Mid/Late March 2022 Russian advance stopped, Ukraine starting counter-offensive action.
May/June 2022 Talk of providing Leopard 2's to Ukraine
Jan 2023 Germany approves transfer of Leopard 2's.
Feb 2023 100's of Leopard 2's and required logistical support equipment maybe 3-7 days transit time to Ukraine, hold up being trained crews and maintainers.

It's not about Summer Last Year, it's about vision and leadership. So, May/June 2022 countries were talking about transferring Leopard 2's to Ukraine. 2-3 month training period to operate and maintain a Leopard 2, they could of had over 50+ tank crews trained up by Feb 2023. Leopard 2 with trained Ukraine crews + maintainers on the battlefield ready for this months or next months expected Russian offensive.

Guess you also think it's a bad idea to start the basic pilot training for F-16's now (minimum 1 year process with pilots that have previous flight experience)??
Worst case..... you don't get the F-16's, but you would get 100+ generally qualified/screened pilots that would cut down on future training time for whatever airframe the US or NATO decides to send.

My Guess/Hope/Wish. US just approved the transfer of missile systems with 190km range.
Missile system used to destroy Russia's air defense systems over the next 4-6 months, degrading it enough to where the US might reconsider sending F-16's to Ukraine.....along with A-10's, Little Bird's and Apache's (yea, not likely....but it's my guess/hope/wish).

Not saying Ukraine didn't / aren't advance training personnel on 4th/5th generation military equipment.......just not hearing about it or seeing it.

[Khun Paul]

On a brighter note the upside of this limited military incursion by Russia into Ukraine does enable Military hardware manufacturers assess the capabilities of their planned upgrades on many levels without resorting o actually putting THEIR soldiers lives in jeopardy or for that matter the current holdings of the hardware to be diminished by the country they made it for.
Oe judders to think what would happen if there were NO incidents involving people fighting how the arms manufacturers would survive considering that apart from Space Exploration and how that has revolutionised Technology in homes. we forget that many advances in the world has come about due to a war somewhere.

[tamada]

By mid-March 2022 Ukraine forces were more on the offensive then defensive.

By June 2022 Ukraine forces were already pushing Russian forces out of occupied areas, and were on the offensive.

And they didn't have the full backing of NATO and their allies.

They still don't.

Having a dozen Leopard II tanks in the field last summer would not have been any sort of game changer. Absolutely none whatsoever.

Qualify full backing of NATO??
...
Guess you also think it's a bad idea to start the basic pilot training for F-16's now (minimum 1 year process with pilots that have previous flight experience)??

Your own timeline evidences Germany sitting on their hands. First through a reluctance to drop Russian gas last summer, limiting materiel to body armor and more recently with this tank "permission" game. Germany is a significant member of NATO.

Hungary was also a notable hold-out last summer having already secured a nice new gas deal with Russia just a couple of months before the invasion. For the past six years, Hungary have been blocking any ministerial level meetings with regard to Ukraine joining NATO. In this context, Hungary is also a significant member of NATO.

Turkey, a NATO member if 60 years standing, threatens to veto Finland and Sweden being fast-tracked into the NATO fold. With the second largest army of the NATO members located closer to the action than the US and UK, Turkey is also a significant member.

Despite Stoltenberg's grandiloquence, the alliance is fragile and under constant duress which only benefits the aggressor.
...
The F16 is a component of a sophisticated air offense/defense system that is far more than fast planes and hot-shot pilots. They need command and control and since integration with an incompatible Soviet-era Ukrainian system isn't an option, the US isn't about to promise the whole enchilada to a nation riven with corruption. Yes, they're punching above their weight but thankfully this is not being overlooked in this simplistic good v. bad war story.

[tamada]

On a brighter note the upside of this limited military incursion by Russia into Ukraine does enable Military hardware manufacturers assess the capabilities of their planned upgrades on many levels without resorting o actually putting THEIR soldiers lives in jeopardy or for that matter the current holdings of the hardware to be diminished by the country they made it for.
Oe judders to think what would happen if there were NO incidents involving people fighting how the arms manufacturers would survive considering that apart from Space Exploration and how that has revolutionised Technology in homes. we forget that many advances in the world has come about due to a war somewhere.

You are kidding. The benefits of war? Seriously?

[Doodoo]

KP
You bring an issue that once researched indicates that Yes the World does benefit from Wars.


https://www.energyandcapital.com/articl ... war-/77433

"Many of the technologies we use and depend on today were developed as a result of war. These technologies include GPS, radar, microwave, rocket science, cell phones, weather forecasting, and modern air travel. And these are just a few.

In fact, if it weren't for wars, we might not even have the internet — or at least not the internet we know today. That's right: The system you're using to read this editorial right now, used by over 3 billion other folks around the world, was first invented by none other than the U.S. military.

Aside from these technologies, wars can also free people from despotism and tyrannical governments."