Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[AlexO]

OIOS was not able to independently authenticate most of the information provided to it.”

Much the same with the recent report on prison atrocities where the report was based on unverified released prisoner interviews. Or maybe not!

[Whistler]

OIOS was not able to independently authenticate most of the information provided to it.”

Much the same with the recent report on prison atrocities where the report was based on unverified released prisoner interviews. Or maybe not!

How do you verify what happened inside a prison? Do you think the prison authorities would have an independent observer, hand over video tapes, provide an affidavit from the prison guards? Ridiculous.

[trekkertony]

Whistler, October 7 to August the 6th may well be an immediate response in your view but others may well have a different view of your definition of an immediate response.

[jackspratt]

First hand evidence of

Torture, abuse and humiliation: Palestinians on Israeli prison ‘hell’

Ex-prisoners report sexual assault and starvation in alleged ‘torture camp’ jails presided over by Itamar Ben-Gvir

Ashraf al-Muhtaseb is a musician who described leaving Israel’s jails with no hearing in his left ear, four fractured ribs and a broken hand, so ill and weak from hunger he could no longer walk.

Dropped at an Israeli checkpoint on his own, he says he began crawling towards his home in the occupied West Bank town of Hebron, until a passerby picked him up.

Muhtaseb’s wife fainted when she saw him, and his son asked: “Who are you, and where is my dad?” Picked up on 8 October 2023, he was not charged before his release on 7 April this year.

In those six months, the 53-year-old said, he passed through three Israeli prisons, enduring a marathon of torture, abuse and humiliation detailed in an interview, backed up by medical records and photos that show the impact of multiple beatings and of losing 30kg (66lbs) of body weight........
https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... rison-hell

Note:

Ben-Gvir is a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, whose "political background lies in Kahanism - a violently racist movement that supports the expulsion of Palestinians from their lands". He has a long history of anti-Arab activism leading to dozens of indictments and at least eight convictions of crimes including incitement to racism, possession of propaganda for a terrorist organization (the now illegal political party Kach) and support for a terrorist organisation (also Kach). As a lawyer, he is known for defending Jews accused of Jewish extremist terrorism on trial in Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Be ... troversies

[AlexO]

First hand evidence of

Torture, abuse and humiliation: Palestinians on Israeli prison ‘hell’

Ex-prisoners report sexual assault and starvation in alleged ‘torture camp’ jails presided over by Itamar Ben-Gvir

Ashraf al-Muhtaseb is a musician who described leaving Israel’s jails with no hearing in his left ear, four fractured ribs and a broken hand, so ill and weak from hunger he could no longer walk.

Dropped at an Israeli checkpoint on his own, he says he began crawling towards his home in the occupied West Bank town of Hebron, until a passerby picked him up.

Muhtaseb’s wife fainted when she saw him, and his son asked: “Who are you, and where is my dad?” Picked up on 8 October 2023, he was not charged before his release on 7 April this year.

In those six months, the 53-year-old said, he passed through three Israeli prisons, enduring a marathon of torture, abuse and humiliation detailed in an interview, backed up by medical records and photos that show the impact of multiple beatings and of losing 30kg (66lbs) of body weight........
https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... rison-hell

Healthy looking subjects of starvation, but thats just me. I lost 24 kgs in 10 weeks last year while in hospital and I did not crawl from the hospital. Picked up the day after the terrorist massacre so must have been pretty much in the forefront of the attacks.
The abuses in Abu Ghraib has at least some photographic evidence which supported the accusations This most likely fictional reporting of the situation in Israeli prisons just adds to the false propaganda so beloved by Hamas and its supporters. Wonder how the Israeli kidnapped hostages are getting on?

[Udon Map]

First hand evidence of

Torture, abuse and humiliation: Palestinians on Israeli prison ‘hell’

Two comments, Jack:

1. This is undoubtedly the narrative mandated by Hamas. It has shown itself to be totally merciless when it comes to its own people. It would never permit a Gazan to say that s/he was treated humanely by the Israelis, particularly given

2. The way that Hamas is treating the Israeli hostages, some of whom have been murdered in captivity. Disobeying a Hamas directive typically results in execution for Gazans.

[Whistler]

Whistler, October 7 to August the 6th may well be an immediate response in your view but others may well have a different view of your definition of an immediate response.

I looked, I re read I studied, I sought outside help, but nobody had flaming clue what you were talking about. Pretty much up to you the standards expected

[jackspratt]

First hand evidence of

Torture, abuse and humiliation: Palestinians on Israeli prison ‘hell’

Two comments, Jack:

1. This is undoubtedly the narrative mandated by Hamas. It has shown itself to be totally merciless when it comes to its own people. It would never permit a Gazan to say that s/he was treated humanely by the Israelis, particularly given

2. The way that Hamas is treating the Israeli hostages, some of whom have been murdered in captivity. Disobeying a Hamas directive typically results in execution for Gazans.

If you read the article I linked to, you would see that most (if any) of the detainees were not from Gaza.

I'm not sure that Hamas has the ability to dictate what West Bank people, who say they have been tortured etc in Israeli prisons, can say.

[rick]

First, here is another link about the "welcome to hell" report. Note it is from ISRAEL's leading human rights organisation , not the UN, not Aljazeera, Not Hamas. I urge anyone reading this thread to actually read this link.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2yylgze4ro

As for 9 UNWRA employees being dismissed, you need to put this into context. UNWRA employs 30,000 people (google result). I am sure if you took any random group of 30,000 people in Gaza, a lot more than 9 would be Hamas members. Israel claimed 450 were, but was unable to provide evidence.

Hamas are undoubtedly callous extremists who do not have any regard for the lives of other Palestinians. But if you remember that every Palestinian in the West bank and Gaza, or other refugee camps, has suffered at the hands of Israel's wars and punitive policies, It is easy to understand why so many support them.

There can never be peace until the Palestinians have there own land free of Israel's control (and no Jewish settlers).

[Kenr6583]

At one time Israel did support and fund these terrorist.

[tamada]

First, here is another link about the "welcome to hell" report. Note it is from ISRAEL's leading human rights organisation , not the UN, not Aljazeera, Not Hamas. I urge anyone reading this thread to actually read this link.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2yylgze4ro

As for 9 UNWRA employees being dismissed, you need to put this into context. UNWRA employs 30,000 people (google result). I am sure if you took any random group of 30,000 people in Gaza, a lot more than 9 would be Hamas members. Israel claimed 450 were, but was unable to provide evidence.

Hamas are undoubtedly callous extremists who do not have any regard for the lives of other Palestinians. But if you remember that every Palestinian in the West bank and Gaza, or other refugee camps, has suffered at the hands of Israel's wars and punitive policies, It is easy to understand why so many support them.

There can never be peace until the Palestinians have there own land free of Israel's control (and no Jewish settlers).

There can never be peace until the Palestinians stop allowing themselves to be proxies of the Iranian mullah's in their centuries-old fight to be recognized as the true protectors of Islam instead of Saudi Arabia.

[Udon Map]

There can never be peace until the Palestinians have there own land free of Israel's control (and no Jewish settlers).

I more or less agree with you, but that's not going to happen until Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, etc. give up on trying to rid the world of Jews.

(I'm still a bit foggy on why "Palestinians" get their own country. AFAICT they didn't exist before Arafat (an Egyptian) declared himself their leader.)

[AlexO]

First, here is another link about the "welcome to hell" report. Note it is from ISRAEL's leading human rights organisation , not the UN, not Aljazeera, Not Hamas. I urge anyone reading this thread to actually read this link.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2yylgze4ro

As for 9 UNWRA employees being dismissed, you need to put this into context. UNWRA employs 30,000 people (google result). I am sure if you took any random group of 30,000 people in Gaza, a lot more than 9 would be Hamas members. Israel claimed 450 were, but was unable to provide evidence.

“We were severely beaten by 20 officers, masked men using batons and sticks, dogs and firearms,” he said.
“We were tied from behind, our eyes blindfolded, beaten severely. Blood was gushing from my face. They kept beating us for 50 minutes. I saw them from under the blindfold. They were filming us while beating us.”

I suppose he was checking his watch from under his blindfold while the 20 masked men were crowded into his tiny cell, all of them viciously beating him, the dogs were biting lumps out of him and firearms were being used but hey he had a miraculous recovery while being starved and abused continually over a 6 month period. There must be miracles happening regularly in Israeli prisons.

[rick]

First, here is another link about the "welcome to hell" report. Note it is from ISRAEL's leading human rights organisation , not the UN, not Aljazeera, Not Hamas. I urge anyone reading this thread to actually read this link.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2yylgze4ro

As for 9 UNWRA employees being dismissed, you need to put this into context. UNWRA employs 30,000 people (google result). I am sure if you took any random group of 30,000 people in Gaza, a lot more than 9 would be Hamas members. Israel claimed 450 were, but was unable to provide evidence.

“We were severely beaten by 20 officers, masked men using batons and sticks, dogs and firearms,” he said.
“We were tied from behind, our eyes blindfolded, beaten severely. Blood was gushing from my face. They kept beating us for 50 minutes. I saw them from under the blindfold. They were filming us while beating us.”

I suppose he was checking his watch from under his blindfold while the 20 masked men were crowded into his tiny cell, all of them viciously beating him, the dogs were biting lumps out of him and firearms were being used but hey he had a miraculous recovery while being starved and abused continually over a 6 month period. There must be miracles happening regularly in Israeli prisons.

Alex, you are clutching at straws. So all the prisoners are lying, the Human rights organisation is lying, the UN is lying, but whatever Israel says is always the truth.

[rick]

There can never be peace until the Palestinians have there own land free of Israel's control (and no Jewish settlers).

I more or less agree with you, but that's not going to happen until Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, etc. give up on trying to rid the world of Jews.

(I'm still a bit foggy on why "Palestinians" get their own country. AFAICT they didn't exist before Arafat (an Egyptian) declared himself their leader.)

What about the 1400 years or so up to 1967? same ethnic group are there now. Maybe part of various states at times, From the Byzantine empire and various successor states. They didn't ask to be part of Israel, conquered by force, denied various equal rights, systematically being displaced by jewish colonists and likely to be killed if they try to do anything about it (a bit like indigenous natives in North America in the 18th and 19th centuries).

[Udon Map]

What about the 1400 years or so up to 1967? same ethnic group are there now. Maybe part of various states at times, From the Byzantine empire and various successor states. They didn't ask to be part of Israel, conquered by force, denied various equal rights, systematically being displaced by jewish colonists and likely to be killed if they try to do anything about it (a bit like indigenous natives in North America in the 18th and 19th centuries).

The "Palestinians" are looking for full recognition by and membership in the U.N. But they reject the U.N. recognition of Israel. They can't have it both ways. Either they recognize and accept U.N. actions and resolutions, or they don't.

The British Mandate (which was legally binding) was given to England by the League of Nations (predecessor to the U.N.) in 1920 following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. The Palestinian National Charter, the first document establishing a "Palestinian" people, was adopted in 1968, when Israel was already 20 years old.

More to the point, if the rulers of the "Palestinians" weren't hell bent on destroying Israel and ridding the world of Jews, an independent, self-governing "Palestinian" state would have been established decades ago. The leaders/rulers of the "Palestinians" have proven repeatedly that they care much more about killing Jews than they care about the welfare of the people they rule/govern.

[AlexO]

First, here is another link about the "welcome to hell" report. Note it is from ISRAEL's leading human rights organisation , not the UN, not Aljazeera, Not Hamas. I urge anyone reading this thread to actually read this link.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2yylgze4ro

As for 9 UNWRA employees being dismissed, you need to put this into context. UNWRA employs 30,000 people (google result). I am sure if you took any random group of 30,000 people in Gaza, a lot more than 9 would be Hamas members. Israel claimed 450 were, but was unable to provide evidence.

“We were severely beaten by 20 officers, masked men using batons and sticks, dogs and firearms,” he said.
“We were tied from behind, our eyes blindfolded, beaten severely. Blood was gushing from my face. They kept beating us for 50 minutes. I saw them from under the blindfold. They were filming us while beating us.”

I suppose he was checking his watch from under his blindfold while the 20 masked men were crowded into his tiny cell, all of them viciously beating him, the dogs were biting lumps out of him and firearms were being used but hey he had a miraculous recovery while being starved and abused continually over a 6 month period. There must be miracles happening regularly in Israeli prisons.

Alex, you are clutching at straws. So all the prisoners are lying, the Human rights organisation is lying, the UN is lying, but whatever Israel says is always the truth.

Not at all.
If you sit down without your Palestinian glasses on and actually read what is being said, all by released Palestinians then you will realise that yes 99.9% all the prisoners are lying, its what the Hamas propaganda machine does.
The UN and so called Human Rights organisations are just accepting whatever the lying propaganda machine spouts out to them. Just think about it. The UN and the Human Rights people found all these people on their own or asked 'Hamas' for access to released prisoners.

[rick]

IDF soldiers murder Palestinian customs officer, caught on surveillance camera.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd735zvg1q9o

As usual, an IDF denial, but the camera proves otherwise.

[Whistler]

Interesting see 100% unwavering support for Israel by some here. There is no such thing as one side being 100% pure as the driven snow in any war.

When you have independent bodies on the ground observing what is going on, it is not reasonable to dismiss their statements easily. Of course Hamas has a propaganda agenda, but ditto the IMF

This is a dirty little war and there is blood on the hands of both parties, but there is no mistaking the fact that the initial victim of this war, Israel, is now the aggressor. The body count, verified by so many independent bodies is not propaganda, it sadly is very real.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Interesting see 100% unwavering support for Israel by some here. There is no such thing as one side being 100% pure as the driven snow in any war.

When you have independent bodies on the ground observing what is going on, it is not reasonable to dismiss their statements easily. Of course Hamas has a propaganda agenda, but ditto the IMF

This is a dirty little war and there is blood on the hands of both parties, but ]there is no mistaking the fact that the initial victim of this war, Israel, is now the aggressor. The body count, verified by so many independent bodies is not propaganda, it sadly is very real.

Interesting to see how your supposedly neutral role as a rational observer seems to have taken a turn in favour of Hamas. Surely, Hamas knew Israel would hit back and hit back hard when it launched the attack on Israel. This raises the question, what was the purpose of the Hamas attack? Do you think the body count would be lowered if Hamas permitted their tunnels to be used as bomb shelters? Has the other side stopped their aggression? Aren't rockets being fired into Israel on a regular basis. Finally, does IMF stand for International Monetary Fund?