Farang musicians can play out legally without a work permit

[Arosolius]

STORY SO FAR

There's a lot to get through in this thread if you're thinking of posting something on the last page. So in brief, so that people don't get their knickers in a knot trying to understand, I'll summarize the story so far.

• I knew I wasn't allowed to play music legally in a public place so I didn't do it. Instead, I tried to find a way that I could.

• I sent out a lot of emails to other farang musicians in Thailand, to Philippino agents that send bands to Thailand and to musical agents in Thailand who hire our farangs to hotels and resorts.

• One of Philippino agents & one Thai musical agent told me that they get their musicians a taxpayer ID card and that allows them to play on a casual basis. The hirer (hotel or whatever) deducts the tax, sends it to the tax man and all is OK.

• I consulted a lawyer who read a lot of paper and made a few phone calls and told me it was OK, legal, above board but advised me to make out a hire contract, have the hotel or bar sign it & keep it visible when I'm playing.

• I engaged a well connected lady to come with me to the taxation office to see about getting a taxpayer ID card. She has connections high up in another - relative to the subject - Government department. She said she didn't want to waste my time so she called the other department who told her that what I intended to do was legal. So we went to the taxation office. The man behind the desk told me that what I was going to do (earn money casually & pay the tax office) was legal and that a lot of teachers do it.

• I posted this information here on the Map thinking I'd found out a legal way to pay in public and another contributor then told us the he already had a taxpayer ID and he was told it was legal too.

• Now I'm told by other, better informed, contributors that what I thought was legal isn't.

Got the story so far?

NOW, THERE'S NO NEED FOR A POST MORTEM ON WHAT I DID WRONG. I'M WRONG, I ACCEPT IT. THOSE WHO WANT TO PULL ME TO PIECES CAN REST THEIR CASES.

What we farang musicians and signers need is constructive comment. Negative comments are welcomed, they just need to be constructive. Right now Sunbelt Asia's lawyers - via Stickman - are looking into the subject as is Bangkok Post. Tourism Thailand have been asked to comment too.

This thread has so far generated 1600 odd views so I think somebody out there just might have some creative ideas. Here's one that's already been put to Sun Belt Asia's law firm so there's no need to comment specifically on it:

We can play legally at private parties but what constitutes a private party? Can we have a private party in a bar? What if we hire a bar for a night, call it a private party by invitation only, give away printed invitations at the door and people bring their own beer which they could purchase on the sidewalk opposite the bar or at the bar next door?

Above all us 15 or so farang musicians and singers want to play out and be legal.

So please let's have some ideas.

[wazza]

Its a stupid question from me, BUT have you written to Immigration and ask for a case review etc........

Verbal message from local authorities arent worth the paper they are written on...

U can pay tax, like I do etc, I have a valid ID number for my SME , BUT I cant work. When u open up an SME , u are not required to show a Work Permit if an Alien is a registered Director of the company.

Its immigration that give u the approval to work, how its then taxed after is the easy bit....

[Arosolius]

No, that's not a stupid question Wazza. We have to go see immigration and the Labour office but first we want some more info on Thai law as it pertains because we may only get one chance to present our case.
A stupid question from me though What's an SME?

[Udon Map]

Friends, please. The topic is not each other, but whether or not non-Thais can play music without a work permit.

[muppet]

If earning money is not a necessary requirement, why can't interested Bars have "Open Mike" nights where anyone can join in. Any Farang can go to any Karoke joint and leagally sing his arse off. Why couldn't the same Farang go to a place where "open mike" is playing and join in. He could even pay a small fee to the establishment which means he is a customer. This worked well at Irish Clock, no fees but local band hired as a base.

[Arosolius]

Good one Muppet.
With regard to not earning money singing: perhaps the "Thai logic" of that situation is that you could be taking a singing job away from a Thai who could be earning money at it. Don't know.

As to why bars can't have [legal] open mic nights; that's what we'd all like to know. Yes, it worked well - but not legally - at the Irish Clock where there was a well connected owner and there are other places around town now with extremely well connected owners where a farang musician would probably never have a problem with the law. However, what's legal and what's not in pretty well unknown (at least to me) so far.

Interesting question about the difference between singing to karaoke recorded music as opposed to singing with a live band Muppet. That's something to ask immigration about but maybe that's the difference right there - live as opposed to recorded. In fact I wonder if the law does actually make a distinction? I've put this question to Sun Belt Asia's lawyer and we should have an answer in about a week.

[Udon Map]

If earning money is not a necessary requirement, ....

The determination of whether a work permit is required in any particular situation has nothing to do with whether you are earning money. Even without any pay or compensation whatever, if you're "working" you need a work permit.

[Arosolius]

Mmm, food for thought. Somewhere in some act or piece of legislation there must be a legal definition of "work." I wonder if it specifies gainful employment?

[Firfox]

Maybe the definition you are seeking is not work but it is the activity you are undertaking and within what or which industry. Playing music at home is for ones own enjoyment within the confines of your own space. Playing music at an entertainment venue is part of the entertainment industry. Even if you hire a village hall and have people come to watch for free the people are coming to appreciate your skills. Therefore, you are part of the entertainment industry. Remember the golden rule either paid or unpaid work requires a work permit and in my opinion once you are out their entertaining within an industry you are working.

An example in my own business is teaching English. If I go to Nong Prajak Park and sit down in the park next to a group of students and start a conversation and I begin to share some pronunciation techniques this would also be deemed as requiring a work permit for I am using a skill which is part of the Education service and educating others. Yes, there are many grey areas but I think in your case it is covered in the Alien Work Act 2008 and without a doubt you require a work permit and the responsibility is with your employer/organiser/venue owner to help you acquire the permit failure to do so carries big consequences for both parties.

I am teaching free English on behalf of the governor of Udon Thani at the moment in Central Plaza and was previously doing so in a tent outside Nong Prajak Park gates. Everyone said no problem you are working for the government and the project is only short term. I made sure that they obtained me a work permit before I started teaching .

[Firfox]

I just had another thought maybe one possibility is a foundation which would have to be set up with the majority of Thai board members. You could then hire a venue and as long as you only played in that venue you would be ok. The foundation would apply for your work permits and all the proceeds would go to charity.

[Arosolius]

Thanks Firfox
I think the foundation idea could well have legs with one particular venue. I think the idea has come too late for my one free question to the Sun Belt Asia lawyers but I'll try to get it included.

[Udon Map]

FWIW, when I first started coming to Thailand, I would come for a month at a time and spend part of every day running my U.S. business from my laptop in my hotel room in Bangkok. I was advised that while the chances that I would be caught were obviously extremely low in my hotel room, any work which occurs in Thailand, even if totally unrelated to the country, as mine was, requires a work permit. It sounded illogical back then, and still does.

[mortiboy]

Here is an outcome to be aware of.....
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/714 ... _campaign=

[Arosolius]

Below is the question I put to the Sun Belt lawyer through Stickman's weekly column and their answer, the brevity of which is somewhat disappointing:



Question 1: Some farang amateur musicians here in Udon Thani want to play music in public places but without work permits but it's illegal - we could be arrested, fined or deported. We're all retired and don't want payment. Some are married to Thais and we have differing visa situations. We want to be able to play with Thais as well as farangs. It's not even legal for us to play for charities. We can play legally at private parties but what constitutes a private party? We've been told that if we hold a taxpayer ID card we can be hired by the hour by, say, a restaurant where the owner would deduct tax, send it to the Tax Dept and that would be legal. However, we don't believe it. We want ideas to legally get around the situation e.g. what if we hire a bar for a night, call it a private party by invitation only, give away printed invitations at the door and people bring their own beer which they could purchase on the sidewalk outside the bar or at the bar next door?

Sunbelt Asia Legal Advisers responds: It is possible to obtain a one-day work permit from your local Labour Office (with support from the potential employer) for a special event. They issue the work permit on a case by case basis. It is best to check with your local Work Permit Office to see what they want in order to apply for one. Please be aware that a person on a retirement visa extension cannot obtain a one-day work permit as they are not allowed to work at all.

[Arosolius]

Further to the above post here are 2 emails I've received from entertainment companies in Bangkok. The first is from the owner operator of a company in Bangkok that hires out farang DJ's and musicians. He has around 70 farangs on his books and some very large International hotels in his client portfolio. I've not posted his name or that of his company in case he's got it wrong and is not operating within the law.

"Hi Peter,

I wanted to add some more info that can help you understand a bit
more about this topic.

From my personal experience in Thailand (and believe around the world
is the same), if you want to work you HAVE to pay taxes to the
government.

Will give you an example: How can you do if you have a company in TH
and you need a translator to perform a specific task for a few hours?

You can't make a Work permit for that person to translate 3 pages of
a document. You can pay "black money" but that is illegal.

However you can assign that task to a foreigner who has a TPI Tax
Payer ID and tribute the tax to the government, meanwhile you get the
translation done.

The restriction to TPI is that you can't "work" everyday for the same
company or 2, 3 days a week. That is just for projects like 1 per
month or so, once a year or similar.

The problem may arise if your "employer" has no company or it is not
legally inscribed, well in that case you can't perform even if you
have your TPI.

I can count by dozens the forms that I have with me from different
companies, mostly International Hotels (that are very strict when it
comes to documents), Big companies in BKK as well.

Also had Work Permit in the past and it is exactly the same, you pay
taxes but you have a contract and you go to work everyday.

I know is hard sometimes, or maybe blur about the law. But for your
peace of mind remember what I told you.

Writing anonymously in a forum is very easy, unfortunately several
people make choices based on what they read. Not exactly knowing if
it is true or if they have other interests behind.

Just don't worry you want to play music or do whatever you like, go
for it. Learn the tax law and you will be just fine.

Thailand is my home as well and the last thing I want to do here is
to break the law.

NEVER HEARD OF DEPORTATIONS FOR PIANO / GUITAR PERFORMANCES LOL

Take care man,"

And now another email from someone in a similar situation also in Bangkok whose ad on the Net says this: "weddings, corporate events, birthdays, pool parties, society balls, hotel functions, school parties, bars and pubs etc, you can be assured that our experienced team of mobile DJ's will take care of it. For over 15 years we have provided the entertainment for private bookings from all over the world, be that weddings or the gala dinner entertainment parties for large corporate functions."

"Hi Peter

Law states that you need a work permit to play music, even big concerts here are given one for 1 day. If you are playing in a venue they could look into it? Never heard about the Taxpayer ID cards, in theory you can not pay tax without having a work permit in the first place, if its not too 'visible' is anyone going to find out when you play? IE different venues all the time.

Hope you can figure it out!

Regards"

[Arosolius]

TIME TO VISIT THE LABOUR DEPARTMENT

Now that we have so much information and know what questions to ask I figure it's time to visit the Dept of Labour and the Immigration office and put the questions directly to them. Would anybody care to accompany me to these interviews and share the cost of an interpreter? I have a very good one that charges 500 baht per hour & speaks perfect American English but we don't have to use him if somebody has somebody that's as good and cheaper.

[Arosolius]

From the Tourism Authority of Thailand in reply to my question as to why this silly law exists and comparing it to Cambodia where foreigners can get up and play on stage as and when they wish.

Dear Sir,

Sorry for our delayed reply.There is no answer why some
foreigners without work permits are arrested while some are not when
performing music on streets or at restaurants. Having searched for
more information and looked into the content of the law, doing so is
not allowed unless the artists are granted special permits. And
according to that,we insist saying that foreigners without work
permits are not allowed to perform such performance.
We do not want to compare Thailand to neighboring countries.
Different countries do have different regulations.

Best regards,
Anusit Inree
Information Service Section
Tourism Authority of Thailand
http://www.tatcontactcenter.com
http://www.tourismthailand.org

[wazza]

Whilst this is coming from the Tourist Authority, I imagine they have rang a few colleagues and this reply, seems to sum up what many / most of us would and have said.

No work permit for playing music, ( WP are for a designated position / activity ) then it would be regarded as illegal activity under your immigration visa.

An expat with a WP for teaching eg , would deemed to be breaching his WP if he or she was busking / playing music.

[Arosolius]

I've now given up on this subject being totally convinced that I can never play music legally in a public place in Thailand. It's against the law, I thought there was a way around it but I've been unable to find one.

Over the past 2 months I've visited Chiang Rai, Chiang Mai, Mae Sai, Uttaradit, Pai, and Ban Chiang and discussed the subject with bar owners who have live music on their premises. Some weren't even aware that it was illegal to have farangs play at their places.

One Thai bar owner in Chiang Rai had a big sign in English outside saying "Jam With Sam" He told me the cops don't bother him because he doesn't have farangs playing regularly on the same nights. He said that a bar a couple of doors down had a farang playing every Friday night and after a couple of months he was hauled into the cop shop and both he and the bar owner ended up paying out money.

In another place I saw an ad on a lamp post advertising "Jazz & Blues, open mic nights every Wednesday". I went to see the farang owner who told me that his open mic nights didn't ever get started because a friendly cop came and told him to be careful because what he was advertising was illegal.

At the two bars I visited in Chiang Mai I was told that farangs playing was out of the question - everyone knew about the law and nobody would have a farang playing in their bar.

In Pai nobody cared or gave a damn, I saw tourist farangs playing in 4 different restaurants . There was even a farang busker on the street! I asked how long he'd been playing there and he told me about 6 months. He had no idea it was illegal and said that a couple of times the cops had asked him to move on and play further down the street but they didn't tell him it was illegal.

I had various other conversations on the subject with hotel managers, bar & restaurant owners wherever I went but the majority of people I spoke to didn't know that it was illegal for farangs to play out.

So that's me finished with the topic. Thanks for the people who supported me and to the negative guys who made me think. The army's trying to make an impression right now. Perhaps it's a good time to ask them if they'd consider changing this silly law?

Anyway..........over and out.

[can123]

I have a friend who is an accomplished musician and, among other things, has played the trumpet as part of an orchestra which accompanied Tom Jones at the Impact Arena, Bangkok. He lives in Bangkok as a teacher and doesn't seek to earn his living from music. He enjoys his music immensely and it is, and always has been, done properly under the law. Farangs cannot work in Thailand without permission of some sort. Playing music is no different to any other kind of work.

There is a grey area when a bunch of guys get together in a bar for a jam session.