Future energy sources?

[Whistler]

Sounds like a commonse decision, it also sounds like the group that lodged the claim were more than a bit fanciful

[AlexO]

Personally, I have never seen The Niagara Falls, the Antarctic or the Pyramids, but do not rely my personal observations to be the limit of my knowledge. There are 43 sites in the USA alone and pumped hydro provides 96% of all the stored energy in the USA.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/pumpe ... hydropower

Whistler
Just how much of the USA's total power requirements does that represent?
Even those with the most limited knowledge know you need at least two catchment areas for a Hydro return system to work. I will bet you don't find catchment areas at the 'TOP' of mountains. I have no problems with Hydro systems, but they have their limitations. Size being the main problem and geographical restrictions a close second, they are just too small to make much difference to the overall power requirements worldwide and geographically you need catchment areas and slopes to cause the flow. I still maintain that we are being blinded by the Green Brigade kidding on that wind and solar will save the planet while allowing mankind to expand in numbers with the resultant increase in food and land requirements.

[rick]

Just a couple of bits of additional information. I worked at the Jabiluka Uranium mine reserve in the 1978-1980 for Pancontinental mining. At the time it was the largest known Uranium deposit in Australia. Hence why i questioned those top ten producers. Unfortunately many internet sources AND published works are unreliable.

Pump storage reservoirs - typically built in mountainous areas, such as glacial valleys. They may not provide large amounts of energy, but meet a specific purpose - near instantaneous power at short notice. Avoids havi g power plants running and consuming fuel but not producing electricity. In the UK, example was when adverts appeared on TV, power demand surged as lots of families put the kettle on to make tea.

[Whistler]

Alex asks some good questions about pumped hydropower.

For those interested, this is quite a long analysis, very comprehensive. For those with a fleeting interest, it can be summarised.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 ... on%20cycle.

Hydropower itself accounts for around 17% of worldwide power generation but conventional power from river systems has little scope for growth as viable systems have already been built. Pumped hydro produces around 22,000,000 kW in the USA today. However, there has been little growth in pumped hydro for decades, now there is a resurgence of interest in this very efficient method of energy storage.

Austraia is probably the world leader in the renewable sector, within a decade, some states like South Australia will be close to 100% renewable, but is topographicaly unsuitable for much pumped hydro (not enough hills near water sources).

World leading projects are being built in NSW. A lot of rivers, a lot of water and an immense mountain range in close proximity to coastal rivers. Pumped hydro is a real option for these types of topographical locations.

Not a golden bullet to energy storage, but I have no doubt it will be a significant option for many countries.

[tamada]

Mate of mine was subcontractor HSE on one if these pumped hydro projects in NSW(?) last year. He shared some interesting links with me as he was pretty amazed at the size and scope of a technology and methodology he'd never heard of previously; he's an old school fossil fuel dinosaur like myself. It's a hugely impressive, expensive investment with long-term payoffs but largely modelled on existing environmental conditions including weather patterns. I wonder what the impact of "global boiling" will be on these models? Maybe it's being factored in on-the-fly already? Possibly another AI-driven initiative?

[glalt]

Electric cars are the answer for our pollution problems. They are as great as sliced bread. BUT, where is all that electricity to charge the batteries going to come from? Electric cars use a LOT of electricity. Within the next couple of years many countries are going to suffer brownouts and even blackouts. Are the greenies failing to see what is going to happen a couple years down the road? Maybe electric cars are not that great?

[Whistler]

Mate of mine was subcontractor HSE on one if these pumped hydro projects in NSW(?) last year. He shared some interesting links with me as he was pretty amazed at the size and scope of a technology and methodology he'd never heard of previously; he's an old school fossil fuel dinosaur like myself. It's a hugely impressive, expensive investment with long-term payoffs but largely modelled on existing environmental conditions including weather patterns. I wonder what the impact of "global boiling" will be on these models? Maybe it's being factored in on-the-fly already? Possibly another AI-driven initiative?

Global warming does not mean water will boil off into the atmosphere. Australia is experiencing massive flooding at the moment that appears to be a result of warming seas creating storm clouds that cool and drop their load over the continent. Is your mate working on Snowy 2? A few billion dollars building further on one of the world's largest Hydro projects that started 70 years ago.

From memory, no government funding. The federal government is guaranteeing loans for the project. An excellent example of private/public co-operation.

[Whistler]

Electric cars are the answer for our pollution problems. They are as great as sliced bread. BUT, where is all that electricity to charge the batteries going to come from? Electric cars use a LOT of electricity. Within the next couple of years many countries are going to suffer brownouts and even blackouts. Are the greenies failing to see what is going to happen a couple years down the road? Maybe electric cars are not that great?

Do you have any figures, any research papers to back up this opinion? EV's are but one part of the world having to move away from fossil fuels, I doubt if the world will crash and burn for the sole reason than people are adopting EVs.

[noosard]

Global warming does not mean water will boil off into the atmosphere. Australia is experiencing massive flooding at the moment that appears to be a result of warming seas creating storm clouds that cool and drop their load over the continent. Is your mate working on Snowy 2? A few billion dollars building further on one of the world's largest Hydro projects that started 70 years ago.

From memory, no government funding. The federal government is guaranteeing loans for the project. An excellent example of private/public co-operation.

Is not suppose to be an El Nino year this time

[glalt]

Electric cars are the answer for our pollution problems. They are as great as sliced bread. BUT, where is all that electricity to charge the batteries going to come from? Electric cars use a LOT of electricity. Within the next couple of years many countries are going to suffer brownouts and even blackouts. Are the greenies failing to see what is going to happen a couple years down the road? Maybe electric cars are not that great?

Do you have any figures, any research papers to back up this opinion? EV's are but one part of the world having to move away from fossil fuels, I doubt if the world will crash and burn for the sole reason than people are adopting EVs.

https://www.powersystems.technology/new ... -2024.html

[Whistler]

As the article states, it is the general electrification increase as so many things in life like heating and industrial processes make the switch from fossil to renewables. Electric vehicles are not the sole cause of potential electricity demand issues in the future.

To claim we are being blindsided about the future needs, so we will suddenly and unexpectedly will experience brownout and blackout just because the are a number of electric vehicles on the road, is ridiculously simplistic. All authorities involved with electricity supplies are modelling to predict future needs, they are aware and have plans to manage the grids. As I asked before, do you have any references to back up your statement that EV's will cause chaos, what percentage of the future needs are purely attributable to EV's?

[noosard]

Pretty obvious that any new major usage of electricity will cause problems

[Whistler]

Pretty obvious that any new major usage of electricity will cause problems

Not the case at all. Have a good read of this article. By charging vehicles at night when there is plenty of excess capacity in the power grid, even a 100% adoption of EVs will not be hard to manage.

Even if there is a 100% adoption of EVs by 2050, this will only require a 1% growth in electricity generation each year to meet this demand. By providing incentives to charge vehicles at off peak times, it will have almost no impact on the grid.

http://advocacy.consumerreports.org/res ... e-evs-yes/

[tabanaac]

Electric vehicles were already considered expensive and hard to repair. Now their image could take another hit as rental giant Hertz dumps 20,000 of them, including Teslas, for gas-powered cars.

Hertz, the largest U.S. fleet operator of EVs, has blamed the sale on high repair costs and weak demand for the vehicles it offers on rent.
The survey, covering owner responses on more than 330,000 vehicles, showed that EVs from the past three years had 79% more problems than conventional cars.

For many EVs, there is no way to repair or assess even slightly damaged battery packs after accidents, which forces insurance companies to write off the cars with a few miles - leading to higher premiums and undercutting gains from going electric.

[noosard]

So what power source charges these EV's at night

[AlexO]

That's okay if you are treating EV's as an isolated issue. What about Nations who currently use, let's say natural gas, as the main source of domestic cooking, central (or individual room) heating, bulk or instantaneous water heating (bathes showers etc). My home country has a lunatic Green influence that has said no more fossil fuels by 2030. There will be a huge increase in electrical demand which the current electrical infrastructure is not designed to carry. Nations who string cables above the surface will not face as many problems but the UK, where everything is underground in urban areas, face massive disruption to roads and to individual homes to install this reinforced system. What kind of carbon footprint do you think the huge amount of copper, insulation materials, the manufacturing process of cabling and the massive amount of civil works required to install this reinforced electrical infrastructure will be.

[noosard]

Australia has problems now with the grid being overloaded with excess solar

[AlexO]

Noos
Thats great for Australia.
Dont know quite how you overload a grid with excess solar, the grid supplies the demand, there maybe excess capacity but there you go.
I was referring to Countries, Western European admittedly who are having to drop entirely fossil fueled domestic services.
Just a small example, how many restaurants in European Countries use electricity as the main source of cooking power.
Who if a Natural Gas supply is available uses electricity to heat, cook and provide basics like hot water. The existing electrical infrastructure in vast areas of Europe will not be able to 'safely' handle the increased demand.

[Whistler]

Australia has problems now with the grid being overloaded with excess solar

Thats a statement. I would be interested in what is published on the issue.

The energy regulator AEMO is well aware of the issue of variable generation and demand. In fact they have some quite mature AI models they have developed over the past 3 years. A company called Generica AI built a grid model for Turkey and this was reviewed by AEMO in September 2020.
They did not purchase that model. They recognised the issue not being the grid as much as the variable demand and lack of storage. As grids are owned by states, many in private hands, the issue of management is complex. South Australia has approached this by building, what was at the time the world's largest battery storage system from Tesla. This appears to be working well..

Other states are now playing catch up, I am not fully abrest of the developments since that review.

[AlexO]

Whistler.
Fine, the biggest Tesla battery storage system in Australia.
What's the projected lifespan of the batteries?
What do you do with the redundant batteries?
How long will we allow children to work in abysmal conditions mining the base materials for these new and the replacement batteries?
What is the environmental impact of mining these components?
Clean energy, My Giddy Aunt.