Future energy sources?

[rick]

Definitely at a cusp moment as to where our energy will come from. Wood? Coal? Oil? Gas? Hydropower? Solar? Wind? Nuclear?

The Ukraine war has really focused where and how we source our energy.

I will start off by mentioning hydrogen. Vastly overhyped. Current sources are not green and still rely on Natural gas as a source. And energy is needed to transform it. 'Green hydrogen' at fifst sounds great, but is also in energy terms vastly inefficient. For electricity use, it is 6 times more efficient just to use electricity produced by solar or wind farms directly. It may have limited use in transport.

[Whistler]

Merry Xmas Rick, a good topic for anybody interested in the future. My take on the subject.

We not only have to have alternative sources of energy, then we need to work out how to store it, the third problem is how to distribute it.

We have identified alternative sources, solar, wind, tidal and I would not discount nuclear. Maybe the latest fusion breakthrough will come to the fore. So we have abundant sources, the challenge is how quickly they can be built.

For me, I think the greatest challenge is how to store it. I cannot see metal based batteries as the answer, it just seems to me that we don't have enough raw material to fully store power for the world. Kinetic storage in the form of water pumping is already widespread, maybe chemical storage such as conversion to hydrogen or ammonia.

The third big challenge, distrubting electricity is already in place, but it is clunky for mobile things like cars. Expensive batteries, slow charge times, I would suggest modular, standard swappable batteries might help.

This thing about hydrogen is it slots into storage and distribution. It has a role in both of these issues, its just damned expensive and has the current problem of using fossil fuels as it's main raw material. A breakthrough in its production, perhaps via electrolysis would change that.

Napoleon was fascinated by aluminium, he used it for his dinner plates and reportedly had a ring made for Josephine from the metal. At that time, aluminium was more expensive than gold. Science changed all that, if Science can do the same for hydrogen, the most abundant element in the universe, we solve the storage and distrubtion challenge.

[tamada]

Coincidentally, there was a very good post on LinkedIn regarding the time being wasted on chasing the renewable 'silver bullet' and hydrogen was right up there with the best of the knee-jerking. Last year, it was being heavily hyped by all sorts including DAF who make more lorries than Isaan makes plates of somtam.

If I find the story again, I will copy/paste but some of us know how slippery LinkedIn can be.

[parrot]

A few weeks ago if you listened to advances in AI you might have heard the same thing.......we're getting there, but we're still a long ways off. Then Chatgpt came along and upped the ante.
I have faith that the scientists working fusion problems can see beyond the bumps in the road. Fusion, self-driving cars, AI, crypto coins..........well, maybe not crypto coins!

[FrazeeDK]

technology marches along, sometimes slowly. The fact is the next big breakthrough is always 5-10 years in the future. Meantime they need a practical accepted transition plan without cancelling fossil fuel development and production.

[tamada]

Here's Thailand's take on renewables in 2023.

There's a nod to hydrogen on page 12.

https://www.chandlermhm.com/content/fil ... 202023.pdf

[Whistler]

And pages 13 and 14.

The science of making green Hydrogen seems to be one of the biggest faced in history.

With abundant solar and wind energy available, maybe it can become cheap enough for inefficient electrolysis to be viable.

From all I can understand, there is no other alternative fuel to store and distribute energy offering the promise of hydrogen

[Potamoi]

Conversation with Oliver Stone RE his new doc "Nuclear Now" is fairly compelling IMHO.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4hfegs ... d118864a82

Rogan makes a great comment at about the 48:50-50:15 mark that is applicable in most every subject.

I have not found a source to watch it yet but here is the trailer:

[glalt]

Fusion is the future for efficient safe nuclear power. Fortunately, rapid progress is being made but commercial use is still a few years away. As it is, nuclear power is still the best option. Like it or not, nuclear is the cheapest and cleanest way of generating electricity.

[Whistler]

Fusion is the future for efficient safe nuclear power. Fortunately, rapid progress is being made but commercial use is still a few years away. As it is, nuclear power is still the best option. Like it or not, nuclear is the cheapest and cleanest way of generating electricity.

A real mixed bag of views on nuclear, credible viewpoints from pro nuclear and anti nuclear. Maybe it is horses for courses. Would I want to live next to a nuclear plant, no way of Buddha's little earth. Imagine how much Labrador puppies with two heads could eat.

Might be OK in Oz, plants can be built in the desert and waste can be stored under parliament house, building one in Lichtenstein or on a fault line in California, maybe too risky.

[tamada]

Fusion is the future for efficient safe nuclear power. Fortunately, rapid progress is being made but commercial use is still a few years away. As it is, nuclear power is still the best option. Like it or not, nuclear is the cheapest and cleanest way of generating electricity.

A real mixed bag of views on nuclear, credible viewpoints from pro nuclear and anti nuclear. Maybe it is horses for courses. Would I want to live next to a nuclear plant, no way of Buddha's little earth. Imagine how much Labrador puppies with two heads could eat.

Might be OK in Oz, plants can be built in the desert and waste can be stored under parliament house, building one in Lichtenstein or on a fault line in California, maybe too risky.

Though so. Bloody NIMBY.

[Whistler]

Guilty M'lord

[rick]

Nuclear still has a lot of issues and the safety precautions needed make the whole life cost very expensive. Also the build times are protracted. Hinckley point C power station in the UK was conceived in 2010, but construction didn't start until 2017 (due to protracted negotiations with UK government). It will not open until 2028 (at the earliest) and current cost is over 32 billion GBP. The cost of electricity produced was set at 9.25 p per KWH in 2012, but subsequent inflation would make that at least 11p per KWH now. That is only the wholesale price.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_P ... er_station

New Nuclear power stations started now would be unlikely to come on line before 2035, by which time demand will have increased considerably. And renewables are cheaper - more like 4-10p per KWH. And they can be installed quickly.

Fusion power is far away. There is a world of difference between achieving a one millisecond fusion event that creates more power than it consumes and a continuous/serial fusion event that can provide a steady supply of electrical power. I doubt that this will happen before 2050.

[tamada]

Interested in the source or maybe the rationale of the quoted claim that renewables are "cheaper". I think most members are aware of the "economy" of burying of "old technology" wind farm blades in land fill. That along with all the "old technology" EV batteries that will need disposal when their similarly short, 10-year life span expires

[Doodoo]

looks like 48 nuclear reactors being constructed throughout the world. Therefore there is still investment going on with Nuclear
https://www.statista.com/statistics/513 ... worldwide/
The power from these are much cheaper than conventional generators.

The oldest has been in operation in Switzerland for 54 years
"Beznau nuclear power plant in Northern Switzerland takes the honour of being the oldest nuclear power currently in use.

Construction on the plant began in 1965 and Beznau 1 began producing power on 1 September 1969, with Beznau 2 following in 1972. It has two pressurised water reactors (PWR) built by Westinghouse with a capacity of 365MW each, for a total capacity of 730MW and able to produce 6000 gigawatt-hours (GWh) of energy."

[Doodoo]

Not all wind mill blades are buried. Some are recycled at the moment into feed for 3D Printers as seen here

"Fayazbakhsh has published papers documenting his team's success in creating a 3D printing feedstock from recycled windmill blades. He says they have also started a company, Fibrecycle Materials Corp., to commercialize this process."
Although the process is in its infancy , at least it has started.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 647981002/

[noosard]

Legendary actor, comedian and car enthusiast, Rowan Atkinson, has turned against electric cars.

Having converted to battery power nine years ago, the actor known for his roles in Mr. Bean and Blackadder said the technology is flawed and other alternatives should be explored in an opinion column in the UK publication The Guardian.

[Whistler]

Already mentioned on EV thread a few days ago

[noosard]

Thats nice

[BillaRickaDickay]

Not to worry, Pyramid Power coming soon.