City centre redevelopment.

[Bump]

Interesting the comments about the family. For those of us who were here in Udon's last big flood. Let me tell you of my personal experience with the family. Finding a place to stay during that flood was extremely difficult. Hotels could easily have tribbled thier prices and filled thier Rooms. Cheronsi reduced thier rates by 50% I know I stayed there. when the owner was Mayor of the City, he did a lot to make farrangs feel welcome.

[fatbas***d]

Sorry Trubrit, Disagree with nearly all you have written.

My point whether you like it or not, is that we are all here as guests of the Thai people

I don't regard myself as a guest, I live here with my wife and children, have done so for 14 yrs. In any developed country I would be able to apply and be granted full citizenship, but not here.
I am only here courtesy of the money I bring in each year, if I didn't have those financial resources I would be booted, family or no family.

In my own country, there are many Thais living and working, they would feel rightly insulted and I would be insulting them if I called them "Guests".
A guest implies a person staying for a limited period, in most cases the Thai living in my country are as I am, for good, except that in a more caring society, in which they have been granted rights.
They can have their say in changing that which they don't like by voting, I cannot and never will be given that right to participate fully in the country in which I have chosen to live.

As for corruption, certainly it exists in developed countries but its far from endemic and its not normal, in that I have never in 60 yrs of living in the West ever had an instance where I have been impacted with corruption.
I have never had a cop ask me for money to overlook an infraction. I a have never had officials extort money from me, by threatening to harm my family. All these acts occur daily in Thailand, and here, I have experience of both.

Why would a person with any honour look the other way ? or not want to change this ?
I want to change it because I want my daughters to grow up in a country, they can be proud of and one where there is justice for every body, not just those that drive Mercedes Benz and can therefore get away with killing people because they cannot control their rage.

[trubrit]

Sorry Trubrit, Disagree with nearly all you have written.

My point whether you like it or not, is that we are all here as guests of the Thai people

I don't regard myself as a guest, I live here with my wife and children, have done so for 14 yrs. In any developed country I would be able to apply and be granted full citizenship, but not here.
I am only here courtesy of the money I bring in each year, if I didn't have those financial resources I would be booted, family or no family.

In my own country, there are many Thais living and working, they would feel rightly insulted and I would be insulting them if I called them "Guests".
A guest implies a person staying for a limited period, in most cases the Thai living in my country are as I am, for good, except that in a more caring society, in which they have been granted rights.
They can have their say in changing that which they don't like by voting, I cannot and never will be given that right to participate fully in the country in which I have chosen to live.

As for corruption, certainly it exists in developed countries but its far from endemic and its not normal, in that I have never in 60 yrs of living in the West ever had an instance where I have been impacted with corruption.
I have never had a cop ask me for money to overlook an infraction. I a have never had officials extort money from me, by threatening to harm my family. All these acts occur daily in Thailand, and here, I have experience of both.

Why would a person with any honour look the other way ? or not want to change this ?
I want to change it because I want my daughters to grow up in a country, they can be proud of and one where there is justice for every body, not just those that drive Mercedes Benz and can therefore get away with killing people because they cannot control their rage.

Interesting point of view but being realistic not likely to happen in your children's lifetime here in Thailand. Surely all the things you want for your offspring would be more readily available in your home country, as would your individual rights. You chose to live here knowing those limitations on yourself and the family, it is not something that has recently altered so why after 14 years does it now cause you concern? I must agree however that if I had young children I would not want them to be brought up in this environment, but then I wouldn't be living here if I had kids.

[saint]

theres plenty of corruption going on in the U K, in law enforcement and local officialdom, i have worked for companies that paid good back handers to win contract, so ive experianced it personally, ive also known personally bent coppers, so i dont know where your from fats, but if it the U K you must have had your eyes and ears shut for 60 years. yes it happens here maybe not more but certainly more transparently, but in third world countries corruption will always happen. theres no differance between thailand and south america, africa, and the rest of S E asia in my opinion. or anyplace else , its just done with a bigger smile here.

[laphanphon]

one more thing to think about when out and about, or having that family gathering with mixed company. how do you feel when you here the locals use the term farang in private conversation, a few times, with some chuckles. then some more time passes, and the same. now think when we are doing the same, 'thai this, thai that, ha ha ha". that's why i try to remember to say locals when in ear shot of our host. whether complimenting, complaining, or just in the conversation, no need for misunderstandings, if spoken in good way or not. as when i hear farang, farang, farang, i'm not sure, but i'm quessing.........................maybe not a good story being told. if the locals are as paranoid as myself, well, then we can be seen as constant complainers.

just a thought.

[fatbas***d]

theres plenty of corruption going on in the U K, in law enforcement and local officialdom, i have worked for companies that paid good back handers to win contract, so ive experianced it personally, ive also known personally bent coppers, so i dont know where your from fats,
but if it the U K you must have had your eyes and ears shut for 60 years. yes it happens here maybe not more but certainly more transparently, but in third world countries corruption will always happen. theres no differance between thailand and south america, africa, and the rest of S E asia in my opinion. or anyplace else , its just done with a bigger smile here.

I come from NZ which is 3rd on transparency intl corruption index:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption ... ions_Index

The UK is 12th and Thailand ranks 84th, so how you can talk about UK and Thailand in the same breath as regards corruption, beats me.
I have worked in the UK in the capacity of international sales for a capital equipment company.
They had a strict policy of never paying any bribes to obtain contracts, while thats only one company, but in general I found a similar policies amongst our UK competitors.
As for corruption being the norm for SEA countries while I have to agree thats true with the exception of Singapore, they rank 4th.
I did business in Singapore 3o years ago when corruption was fairly normal there, its not now, which demonstrates that with the right political will it can be almost eliminated.

[Astana]

Sorry Trubrit, Disagree with nearly all you have written.

My point whether you like it or not, is that we are all here as guests of the Thai people

I don't regard myself as a guest, I live here with my wife and children, have done so for 14 yrs. In any developed country I would be able to apply and be granted full citizenship, but not here.
I am only here courtesy of the money I bring in each year, if I didn't have those financial resources I would be booted, family or no family.

In my own country, there are many Thais living and working, they would feel rightly insulted and I would be insulting them if I called them "Guests".
A guest implies a person staying for a limited period, in most cases the Thai living in my country are as I am, for good, except that in a more caring society, in which they have been granted rights.
They can have their say in changing that which they don't like by voting, I cannot and never will be given that right to participate fully in the country in which I have chosen to live.

As for corruption, certainly it exists in developed countries but its far from endemic and its not normal, in that I have never in 60 yrs of living in the West ever had an instance where I have been impacted with corruption.
I have never had a cop ask me for money to overlook an infraction. I a have never had officials extort money from me, by threatening to harm my family. All these acts occur daily in Thailand, and here, I have experience of both.

Why would a person with any honour look the other way ? or not want to change this ?
I want to change it because I want my daughters to grow up in a country, they can be proud of and one where there is justice for every body, not just those that drive Mercedes Benz and can therefore get away with killing people because they cannot control their rage.

Interesting point of view but being realistic not likely to happen in your children's lifetime here in Thailand. Surely all the things you want for your offspring would be more readily available in your home country, as would your individual rights. You chose to live here knowing those limitations on yourself and the family, it is not something that has recently altered so why after 14 years does it now cause you concern? I must agree however that if I had young children I would not want them to be brought up in this environment, but then I wouldn't be living here if I had kids.

Both fat bastard and trubrit raise important points, however fat bastard's point regarding your status in Thailand is of course a very obscured issue that needs to be illuminated, since it is not a local or national issue, but an international issue where sovereignty is mute.

Having signed the UN charter's on human rights Thailand has an obligation under those statutes to provide channels that allow foreigners that marry and have children to apply and be granted citizenship, as Thailand under the present rules does not provide these channels it has in the past and remains so as of today in breach of those statutes, consequently and at best we remain tourists with no right to participate and engage in Thai society. Until these fundamentals issues are corrected within the Thai politick nothing will change and the debate will be as sour as it has always been whether on a public forum or the private chambers of elected officials.

[BobHelm]

Having signed the UN charter's on human rights Thailand has an obligation under those statutes to provide channels that allow foreigners that marry and have children to apply and be granted citizenship, as Thailand under the present rules does not provide these channels it has in the past and remains so as of today in breach of those statutes

My understanding was that there is a citizenship path available. How be it that very few are granted every year & every one has to be personally signed by an individual, so, obviously, not something that is taken lightly by Thai authorities. I think the conditions are quite strict, including an ability to speak Thai - but UK/Australia and many others have similar conditions in their requirements - only English, not Thai, of course...

[Astana]

Yes, Bob... There is only one channel open for the right to citizenship and possibly a hundred people a year are given this privilege or more likely about how much tax they pay, it is not an inherent right as proposed by the UN charter.

[saint]

i think it only right that if your serious about becoming a thai citizen, then you should be able to speak, read and write in thai. im sorry fats but the business i was involved in , backhanders and nice gifts like cars and holidays are fairly commonplace to win local government contracts, not transparent like here maybe but definately happens. i also lived with a girl who was the secretary to the lord mayor and the ( perks) that local government officials get are just like here , yet again less transparent. they also use thier inside information to enhance thier businesses. how is this any differant to thailand , mickey mouse index or not !!!!!

[jackspratt]

I think the conditions are quite strict, including an ability to speak Thai - but UK/Australia and many others have similar conditions in their requirements - only English, not Thai, of course...

Unless the little sh*t who was formerly Prime Minister has changed things since I have been away, there is no English test involved in becoming a dinki di.

And there is certainly no requirement to be able to sing all of the 3 versions of the Oz national anthem in English - mainly because there is only 1 version, which probably only about 20% of Australians know the words of.

That includes me, but I certainly know the words of "God Save the Queen"

[BobHelm]

There was a plan to have to take a written English test by Howard, but I do not know if it ever came to fruition..
BBC
Daily Telegraph

[aznyron]

well if they offered me citizen ship free of charge I would tell them to stick it were the sun does not shine I am American I will die American no matter were in world I choose to sleep I did not say live because I don't live here I only sleep here AMEN

[Pakawala]

LA, I take it from your post that you disapprove of being referred to as a 'farang'. This is interesting because I've just had a conversation with a good friend who takes this same position and I've heard it from others as well. I know it's not 'Gospel' but I put 'farang' into a Google search and came up with the following:
From Wikipedia:
Farang (in Thai: ฝรั่ง), sometimes pronounced falang, is the generic Thai word for a foreigner of European ancestry. While generally farang is a neutral word, it can be used in a mocking manner, or even as an insult depending on context. For instance, the expression "farang ta nam khao" (listen (help·info)) (in Thai: ฝรั่งตาน้ำข้าว - which literally means "farang with rice-milk-colored iris") would be considered an insult. It is common in Thai to just say "farang" to point out the presence of one, without making a whole sentence.

I prefer to think of it as a 'neutral word', and take no offense. Also, I often use the term 'Thai' rather than 'local', again, because I do not use it with animosity, any more than I use the terms 'Brit' or 'Swede' or 'German' to describe a particular farang.

I lived for 20 years being called a 'Cano' in the Philippines and never let it get the best of me there either.

[laphanphon]

you disapprove of being referred to as a 'farang'

not at all, think it is very generic, it's the delivery that makes it offensive. which i've never heard towards me, in a negative way that i know of. just trying to make people think when we here farang, how do we feel, and if locals here thai thai thai and chuckles, maybe thinking we're not talking nice, or we're ridiculling something thai.

it's when the keep saying 'farang khee nok or khee neo", get tired of being called that.

[saint]

personally i couldnt give a rats a~se what anyone calls me, good or bad. the people that know me, know me and thats good enough, the ones that dont who cares. ive been called a few choice things by many people in many countries, more so in england than anywhere. rebel? no, just thick skinned.

[jackspratt]

I think the conditions are quite strict, including an ability to speak Thai - but UK/Australia and many others have similar conditions in their requirements - only English, not Thai, of course...

Astana has pointed out to me that the quote above which I have attributed to him in an earlier post is in fact BobHelm's quote.

Mea culpa

[marjamlew]

There was a plan to have to take a written English test by Howard, but I do not know if it ever came to fruition..
BBC
Daily Telegraph

Bob,
I has been introduced and I remember reading an article that pointed out that applications for Oz citizenship have dropped massively. Sorry can't quote the article.
There is a very strong chance that the languabge test with get the boot now that the progressives are back in government.

[jackspratt]

I think I can put the Australian English (is that an oxymoron ) test to bed.

There is a test - in the English language, but it does not involve writing in English. It is a multiple choice, computer-based, test.

There is no test of English language ability, other than being able to read the questions, and answers, on the computer.

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/test/works/how-works.htm

[Kenn]

saint

i know what you mean, people who know me call me a lot worse things