Venomous Snakes of Udon Thani

[Michael C]

Still, some good info in that wiki link. Damn cobras that can spit in your eye from 4 to 8 feet away. For once in my life I'm glad to be wearing specs or, in my case, prescription sunglasses.

Michael C, if the family pooch gets bitten by a poisonous snake will any of the antivenins work for them? If so, wonder if there is anyplace close that might be willing to use their antivenins for an animal? Guessing that the veterinary hospital in Khon Kaen might be too far away to save the dog.

I like wikipedia for quick information, but I always look into their source material because they are not always accurate. I gave the link to Bryan's page, since he is an authority on venom.

Yes, Naja siamensis, our local spitting cobra, can accurately spit to ca. 2m. The good thing is, if you wash out your eyes quickly, there is no long term affect (this will work for your dog too). The short term is great burning pain and blindness; long term is blindness if you do not wash out your eyes. It is always a good idea to have a bottle of water with you in Thailand to keep hydrated; here is another good reason to carry a bottle of water. Of course, you can always quickly go away from the snake.

Yes, antivenin would work for a dog; the antivenin in Thailand is produced from horses. I am not sure who would treat your dog with antivenin and they probably would have no idea how much to give (all dosages I have ever seen were for children or adults). A major problem is that antivenin is expensive (but far cheaper in Thailand than the EU and US) and they do not usually keep a large supply, since it must be kept refrigerated and only has a shelf life of ca. one year. This means they are not likely to give it up for a pet.

[polehawk]

Michael C, thanks for the info. Research topics on Brian's page were interesting. Read that Australia was the only country with snake venom detection kits. A swab from the bite area will tell a doctor which antivenom to use. The kits sound like a must-have item for places like here but maybe they haven't been perfected yet or are cost-prohibitive.

Will leave the biochemistry sections for the real experts to mull over.

[Thaitanium]

[Michael C]

Thaitanium, that is Boiga dendrophila melanota from Southern Thailand, up to Chumphon Province. They sold these snakes as pets in the US until people had to go to hospital (emergency room) for snake bite treatment; now, they are often sold as venomous snakes. Some people can have a serious reaction to its bite, some people do not have any reaction at all. It is a shame to see them kept in such improper conditions. Here is what they look like in their natural habitat, this was taken at Khao Nan National Park, Nakhon Si Thammarat:

[Thaitanium]

[Brian Davis]

There is no snake that is going to rapidly kill you in a matter of seconds or even a minute; that is a myth.

Excellent stuff again Michael, thank you.

I think above will be good news to readers.

Certainly, I must learn to identify the dangerous snakes.

A visit to my local hospital might be worthwhile just to check their arrangements in cases of snake bites (or would it be best just to make for Udon?).

It would be a pity to avoid mushroom picking in the forest depths, as I know the villagers appreciate my valiant efforts!

[intaglio49]

I find your approach, Mr laphanphon, somewhat disturbing. I've lived in Australia 40 years, including habitats for some of the most venomous creatures on Earth. I have had several encounters with snakes. When in the wilderness, I let them pass. When they ventured into my living space, they were captured and relocated. The only snake I have ever killed was one I'd found injured from being run over. Very young children were never left out of sight. They are educated from the earliest days on what to do if confronted with danger. When danger entered the yard, children were kept at a safe distance, but not necessarily out of view from the handling a visiting snake.

There is precious little wilderness left in Thailand. The country is seriously over populated, and your presence is contributing to this overpopulation. I implore you to review your approach to the native flora and fauna. Whatever your legal status is in the country, you are still and will always be 'farang'. The animals you kill belong there.

I fully understand, respect and empathize with the instinct to protect your children. It may be interesting to note that my father was a killer of snakes etc when our family settled in Australia. I was disturbed by it even at the earliest age. However, I am pleased now to see my own son, and others of neighbours of mine, has grown up with deep sense of preservation of nature.

With my sincere regards.

[saint]

whilst i agree with your sentiments entirely i 49 , there are several farangs and thai alike that have a total fear of snakes . misguided fear maybe , but fear non the less . snakes are like the european wolf , in my veiw totaly misunderstood , considered somewhat evil , but in truth mostly harmless . if you suffer from a fobia of these creatures its very dificult to be calm and calculated when meeting one face to face . i come from a country where you could never see a snake in the wild in your entire life , where these creatures natural habitat has been reduced to national parks and isolated patches of land where no sane person would want to live , whilst in thailand ive encountered many snakes , and only once have felt a threat , which was my fault for getting a lttle too close , and the snake reared up , i assumed as a warning and i backed off , he went on his way and i went on mine . the key to mastering any fear in my view is education , thats why this thread and the efforts put into it by micheal C , and others , i find fascinating , not only for recognition purposes , but to enlighten us all as to any dangers these creatures may or may not pose . personaly my fear is spiders , of which ,i kid you not , i found one in my kitchen yesturday as big as my hand !!!!!! so if anyone out there can educate me about them , maybe , just maybe i wont break out into a cold sweat when i meet the next sucker .

[intaglio49]

Yes saint, isn't it ever so true about wolves. And I have lived in Norway many years too, where not so many years ago, they brought out hunters in military style to track one pack that had strayed in from Sweden no doubt. The Swedes even offered to take them, but the Norwegians pigheadedly went ahead with the slaughter, and were even proud of it. Sickening.

Back to snakes, one of the poems I was introduced to at school that ever meant anything to me is "Snake" by D.H.Lawrence. I believe it neatly frames our discussion. Something in it for all of us.

http://homepages.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poe ... snake.html

[laphanphon]

I find your approach, Mr laphanphon, somewhat disturbing

yea, well that happens some times, oh well, different strokes for different folks. i built the old house/wall fairly snake proof, as i really don't like them, and i also hate killing anything, as bit of a nature lover myself. BUT, since i am far from an expert, and have had no luck catching and removing, though really didnt' make much effort, as cornering and killing was difficult enough. with one exception, i think the other 4 or so were definitely poisonous, that triangular viper look, and with kids around, i'm not willing to take that chance. obviously the cobra and krait were getting killed, no matter, and i don't think i put that big a dent in the snake population. the rather large one i noticed at the new house, well, i kind of like him/her, as i seem to be seeing less cats in the yard, and the snake, guessing is quite large, so something i'm going to see and give way to.

scorpion and them damn centipedes will also get the same fate as a poisonous snake, death on site. this is a small village with too many kids, which their safety, i consider a priority, even though they don't seem to know what the 3 trash bins across the street are for.

[SanukJoe]

Michael C., what an excellent thread full of useful information! And highly needed as can be seen on the number and content of reactions.

I would like to give my experience of living on a farm with snakes around, including being bitten and nearly died just recently.

In general I love nature and respect anything that lives in that nature as most (if not all) of them were here long before human beings settled in. We take their land to use it, nothing against it, but we have to live with the fact that they are still there and respect them.
Snakes and other reptiles are fascinating IMHO and I'm happy to see many varieties in my area (75 km east of Udon, really rural Isaan) as I don't have to go to a zoo to see them, they are still there where they belong...

It does not mean you have to accept danger into your daily life. As all species we have to protect our habitat and keep it safe for ourselves and our children. I live on a farm with rubber trees and man farang as intercrop, a perfect habitat for snakes. We have 2 kids and in the parents house live another 3 kids, the house being 100m away on the same farmland. Kids play and run, dressed in shorts and wearing flip flops, not very protective against venomous snakes.
So if any snake (venomous) comes too close to the house it has to be killed as endangering the kids is no option. I hate to kill snakes but I have to do it sometimes. Last year we had a real invasion of spitting cobras and I had to kill 7 of them, amongst a few others. This year shows more variety, no spitting cobras but vipers, a blue and a banded krait, a couple of green tree? snakes (not vipers) and a huge individual cobra crossing the road.

I have two very skilled snake detectors, my two dogs (litter sisters, wild originally), they notice everything moving in the grass but when it's a snake they bark in a particular way and sound, I immediately realise what is happening and only have to find the dogs as they are "standing" the snake.
Last year with the spitting cobras the dogs had a bad time as every time one had a soar eye (flush with water and put chloramphenicol drops in the eye and next day it's over). However, they are not stupid and attack the snakes, they just stand around the snake on a safe distance and bark. If not venomous (as far as I can determine) or if far enough from the house I take the dogs away and tell the snake to move on, what they gladly do in an amazing speed

A couple of months ago I was bitten by a snake. What snake you ask? I don't know as I didn't see the snake! I always wear long trousers and closed shoes when I work in the field but this time I was wearing shorts and sandals as I was just going to the pigs and put on the water pump which is 2m off our road, in the grass. As I came back and switched off the pump I felt a little short pain on my leg, just above the ankle. I thought it was ants, as usual, and didn't give it any further notice. Half an hour later I felt my head started to burn and went to the bedroom, put on the airco. I went down to the main village to collect the kids from school and went back to the bedroom, in the meantime having high temperature. After my wife came in the hot fever changed into cold fever, I was shivering all over. Then a thundering headache started which lasted for 18 hours. During the evening and night I vomited, got diarrhea and every part inside my body was aching. Next day after the headache backed off I went to the local doctor who scared me: temperature 45C! I always thought at 43C you're dead but I was still alive... injection and tablets and next morning temp was nearly normal. This was 36 hours after the bite (which I still had not in mind). As I felt a little pain in my leg I checked it and saw 2 symmetrical black! spots of about 1 cm. Suddenly a flash in my mind: this was a snake bite and I understood now the cause of the fever, headache and being totally sick.

As it seemed that the poison was inactivated by my body I could concentrate on the next problem: a very swollen and infected leg, about double the normal size.
To make that long story short (don't go to local hospitals, go to Udon) I was taken in the military hospital in Udon for 4 days for treatment of the infection, blood tests etc. and went home. It took another 4 weeks before the leg was back to normal proportion, still looking like the moon surface with blue and red craters all over.

This is my story, the lesson I learned is to ALWAYS wear long trousers and closed shoes when in the field and keep the grass in the garden short.

Again Michael C., thanks for all the information, it is highly appreciated! =D>

Joe

PS Sorry for this long post, some things you cannot tell in 30 words

[Fawn]

PS Sorry for this long post, some things you cannot tell in 30 words

No need for apologies, it's an interesting story with an important message. I've seen dogs go after snakes before, which is why I'm always asking people here how their dogs react when there's a snake in the yard.

Did the hospital ever give an indication what the serpent was after judging the symptoms?

[Brian Davis]

Spitting cobras, vipers, banded kraits - and I THOUGHT I was out in the sticks!

Interesting reading and certainly the 'problem', need to visit/spend time in hospital etc.we would all hope to avoid.

[Farang1]

In general I love nature and respect anything that lives in that nature as most (if not all) of them were here long before human beings settled in. We take their land to use it, nothing against it, but we have to live with the fact that they are still there and respect them.
Snakes and other reptiles are fascinating

Yes, indeed. I agree. I love the wild, myself. When I lived in San Diego, we were on the edge of town with vacant hill for a back yard. We were visited on occasion by rattlesnakes. Rather than kill them, I would catch and take them way back in the hills and turn them loose.

[SanukJoe]

Did the hospital ever give an indication what the serpent was after judging the symptoms?[/color]

Based on the size of the bite (2.5 cm/1 inch) they strongly believed it would have been some kind of Viper.
Doctor said, jokingly, it was not a cobra as then you would have been dead...

As there are more Vipers around this year it's possible, I hope Michael can bring some light in this. By the way: I think I stepped on the snake and he bit me as a logical reaction, I have not experienced any attacking snakes, they always try to move away.

Joe

[saint]

great story S J , bit of a horror story , but good information non the less . you say you keep pigs , have you ever had a snake taking any of your livestock ? i totally agree with you about the dogs , my two thai strays notice anything in the garden , and take themselves of hunting whist there being walked . the rottie however only bothers with a threat on two legs !!!!!

[SanukJoe]

you say you keep pigs , have you ever had a snake taking any of your livestock ?

Fortunately not sofar. When we have piglets the dogs seem to change to a regular patrolling scheme, checking if all is ok. The larger pigs are no problem as there is so much prey around for snakes (birds, mice, rats, frogs, geckos) that there is no need to bother about pigs of between 25 and 200 kg

Joe

[SanukJoe]

i totally agree with you about the dogs , my two thai strays notice anything in the garden , and take themselves of hunting whist there being walked . the rottie however only bothers with a threat on two legs !!!!!

Saint, your (and my) thai dogs grew up with the knowledge that there are snakes out there and they behave according to the danger of the situation. The Rottie, even when born in TH, will never show the same attitude as the breed is bred for guarding (against humans). On top, their origin Germany has only one light venomous snake, the adder.

Joe

[beer monkey]

The man who lived to tell the tale....
A good read that Joe...well maybe not so good for yourself, i bet you are very very aware when walking around now, and any little annoyance like a sting or something of that nature around the lower leg a closer inspection is done.

One for the magazine Lee.

[SanukJoe]

i bet you are very very aware when walking around now, and any little annoyance like a sting or something of that nature around the lower leg a closer inspection is done.

Exactly BM, I'm more fixed on possible hide outs of snakes, like piles of leaves or plants. At the moment we are taking out man farang, leaving about 1 m of plants on the yard and in the field, perfect for snakes as it is warm and humid.

I consider the whole incident as a learning school, it gave me 4 lessons:

1. wear long trousers and closed shoes (boots even better but I can't get them in my size ) whenever you go into grassland with high grass;
2. when you feel a sting or bite, don't think it's ants or so but check it thoroughly:
3. keep the grass short in your garden and don't make piles of leaves etc.
4. not go to local hospitals but to Udon asap. It took me 2 full days before getting treated in the military hospital, imagine this in case you have been bitten by a venomous snake....

For myself this incident made me decide to stop drinking strong stuff as the impact of a bite would be much stronger when the veins are wide open due to the intake of Johnny, Jim, Jack and other good friends

Joe