Venomous Snakes of Udon Thani

Post by **saint** » August 2, 2009, 10:20 am

did it realy feel just like an ant bite ? worrying if so , i get bitten by red ants all the time , but recently messing around in the garden i got stung by two bees . i new instantly it wasnt ants , by the intensity of the sting . within seconds it felt like the infected areas were on fire . good tip about the hard stuff and snake bites . along with the others of course .

Post by **SanukJoe** » August 2, 2009, 2:17 pm

quote="saint"]did it realy feel just like an ant bite ? worrying if so , i get bitten by red ants all the time , but recently messing around in the garden i got stung by two bees . i new instantly it wasnt ants , by the intensity of the sting . within seconds it felt like the infected areas were on fire . good tip about the hard stuff and snake bites . along with the others of course .[/quote]

I must add that I used to be allergic to ant bites back in Europe, so maybe my reaction on ant bites is stronger than others experience. The snake bite was certainly not very painful and lasted very short. I wiped my leg as I do when ants are there, that's it.
I have been stung by a kind of bee/wasp several times, the bastard(s) hides in the kitchen towel and when you dry your hands it hits you. This sting is much more painful and the hit thumb or digit gets swollen for a day.

Joe

Post by **Michael C** » August 9, 2009, 4:43 pm

Sorry for taking so long to reply. I had computer problems and had my motherboard replaced. Joe, from what you wrote, it is difficult to tell what kind of snake had bitten you. Viper heads are wider and the fang marks should be wider apart than an elapid (e.g. cobra or krait) bite, like you mentioned, but a viper bite should have been very painful, because the bite starts destroying tissue. The bad headaches and vomiting are more closely associated with elapid bites, not that a viper bite would not cause them. Just because you did not die, does not mean that it was not an elapid. Venomous snakes do not always inject a lethal dose of venom and sometimes they do not inject any venom at all; that is called a 'dry bite'. Venom is very precious and important to venomous snakes and they do not want to waste it if they can keep it.

It appears that they treated you for the symptoms that the bite was causing, is that right? If so, that is proper, since they did not know what kind of snake had bitten you.

You are right about alcohol; snake envenomation and intoxication is a lethal mix. Once in a while in the field, I will have a beer, after the day's work is done. The last few months I was offered whiskey before going out, but declined knowing the dangers of having alcohol in my system when working with venomous snakes, like this one, I collected last month:

This Trimeresurus (Cryptelytrops) macrops is now being kept at a university in Bangkok for educational purposes in a vertebrate zoology course.

Post by **leehut** » August 9, 2009, 8:05 pm

Hi, I was having some work done on the steps next to our front door, and the builder came accross these snake eggs ( 2 were dead)...any idea what they are please ?
Thanks ...Lee

http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm10 ... C40001.jpg

Post by **Michael C** » August 9, 2009, 9:19 pm

There is no way to tell what species those eggs came, not a practical way anyway. DNA might be able tell what species it is, but that is not practical, plus there are many species that have not had their DNA mapped out.

laphanphon · Post by **laphanphon** » August 9, 2009, 10:35 pm

too easy, keep them warm and wait for them to hatch. any luck, they are non poisonous and you have a couple new pets

keeping in mind, a wild animal is just that and always will be.

Post by **leehut** » August 9, 2009, 11:14 pm

Thanks for the reply Michael, I would have loved to have seen them hatch to find out what they were :-" but my g/f has taken them to some waste ground a couple of miles away.

Post by **Michael C** » August 9, 2009, 11:31 pm

Once uncovered and unable to keep the moisture of the site they are laid, they quickly desiccate and die. Snake and lizard eggs are not like bird eggs and rely on a great deal of moisture and a stable temperature. If someone finds eggs in the future, I would be happy to pick them up and take care of them. In the last 5 years I have hatched hundreds of reptile eggs.

Post by **fussychunk** » August 10, 2009, 1:40 am

Michael, just watched a program on Sky 3 here in the UK about some bloke collecting snakes to take to Bangers and make antivenom, most of the show they was talking about a plant/root what the locals eat that almost kills the venom, they never named the root. The root looked like Galangal, have you come across this in your travels?

Fussy

Post by **SanukJoe** » August 10, 2009, 3:40 pm

fussychunk wrote:most of the show they was talking about a plant/root what the locals eat that almost kills the venom, they never named the root. The root looked like Galangal, have you come across this in your travels?

Fussy

It's fresh ginger!
I went to the local "snake doctor" after coming back from hospital, just to please the misses and many villagers who said the snake doctor take away the venom of a snake bite.
The man first gave me a piece of fresh ginger to chew on and then he started to puncture my body with a pen dipped in a fluid that smelled the same as ginger but was dirty imo...
Although it didn't work for me as the venom was out of the body already the guy is famous all over for saving people after they have been bitten, don't ask me how or why but so many people can't be wrong.

Joe

Post by **SanukJoe** » August 10, 2009, 4:19 pm

Michael C wrote:Joe, from what you wrote, it is difficult to tell what kind of snake had bitten you. Viper heads are wider and the fang marks should be wider apart than an elapid (e.g. cobra or krait) bite, like you mentioned, but a viper bite should have been very painful, because the bite starts destroying tissue. The bad headaches and vomiting are more closely associated with elapid bites, not that a viper bite would not cause them. Just because you did not die, does not mean that it was not an elapid. Venomous snakes do not always inject a lethal dose of venom and sometimes they do not inject any venom at all; that is called a 'dry bite'. Venom is very precious and important to venomous snakes and they do not want to waste it if they can keep it.

Thanks Michael, so the snake liked me and just gave me a warning? Kidding and I'm glad I still can.
I read somewhere that the headache etc shows the snake gave a neurotoxin, other than the toxin that goes to the heart and respiratory system. Do all venomous snakes have both venom or can you say it must have been x due to the neurotoxin?

Michael C wrote:It appears that they treated you for the symptoms that the bite was causing, is that right? If so, that is proper, since they did not know what kind of snake had bitten you.

Correct. The first blood test in the hospital showed there was nearly no toxin anymore so no need for a serum (whatever serum that should have been). Mind you it was already 3 days after the bite. They treated me for the very swollen leg and I was scared that quite some tissue was heavily damaged due to the coloration of the skin.

Joe

Post by **Galee** » August 11, 2009, 5:19 pm

Just seen my first snake in the garden. Have looked through this thread, but no picture the same as this one, so advice required please.

Approx 18" long, grey with a black line down the back. Black tongue.

It's gone under the water pump at the moment. Bit concerned the cat will find it.

Post by **Farang1** » August 11, 2009, 11:26 pm

Venomous snakes do not always inject a lethal dose of venom and sometimes they do not inject any venom at all; that is called a 'dry bite'. Venom is very precious and important to venomous snakes and they do not want to waste it if they can keep it.

It was probably an older more experienced snake. The younglings haven't learned to control their venum.

Michael, if a snake, say a siam cobra, does inject all it's venum, how long does it take for them to replenish it?

Post by **Michael C** » August 12, 2009, 10:18 am

Joe, I may have seen that same documentary. Although there was some rather questionable information given in it and it seemed to be a rip-off of a much better locally produced National Geographic documentary (much of what National Geographic has been producing has not been good), I was interested in the analysis of the effects of the root on counteracting venom. There would have to be much more work done on this before I would ever suggest it as a treatment, but if it is indeed effective, it would be preferred to antivenin, which causes extreme reactions in a percentage of people worth consideration. People that work with venomous snakes that are bitten/have been bitten on numerous occasions develop an allergic reaction to antivenin that can kill them. This is the extreme reaction mentioned above, but can happen the first time, which is why they test a person's reaction to a small amount of antivenin before administrating it in any greater amount.

A warning about documentaries: lately more and more are written for more entertainment purposes than educational purposes, not being completely truthful (great exaggeration) so they can get more entertainment value out of it. This is particularly true of much of what I have been seeing coming from most (but not all) documentaries produced National Geographic, Animal Planet and Discovery Channel. BBC, ARD, NOVA and ZDF documentaries appear much more factual rather than entertainment based; unfortunately, these do not sell as well to the larger (in size and financially) US market- to which primarily entertainment based programming sells. Last year, I worked together with a production for NOVA/ARD; I would be very hesitant about working with one for the entertainment based companies.

A funny example of how it appears documentaries are changing (appears to have been looking at the future):

Post by **SanukJoe** » August 12, 2009, 1:24 pm

Michael C wrote:
Yes, Joe, like I mentioned before, the headaches and vomiting are more closely associated with an elapid bite and a viper bite should have been much more painful. The tissue damage is also seen in cobra bites, which is what I would guess bit you, from what you have written so far. Elapid bites also work on the heart and respiratory system by shutting them down. Viper bites work more on the circulatory system, to which the heart and lungs are also a part of; whereas elapid bites shut it down using the nervous system, vipers cause it by making it physically collapse. Neurotoxin and Hemotoxin are labels that we apply to venoms to describe their general effects, but they are far more complicated than to put simple labels on them, since they are a complex cocktail of proteins and enzymes.

Thanks Michael. As I have seen only Naja siamensis on my farm and only one individual cobra crossing the road I ask you do they make a sound before they bite (sssss-ing or so)? And Spitting cobra's not always spit?

Joe

Post by **SanukJoe** » August 12, 2009, 1:51 pm

Michael C wrote: I have not seen Naja siamensis (Spitting Cobra) yet in Udon Thani

Here is a pic of a (dead) cobra, found on my farm 75 km east of Udon.

Joe

: Cobra (dead).jpg (204.53 KiB) Viewed 2697 times

Post by **Michael C** » August 12, 2009, 4:13 pm

Thank you, Joe; that confirms what I have seen from the shed skin and what I have been told by Wolfgang. Cobras and individual cobras generally, but not always gives a warning display when encountered. Exceptions are primarily when they are surprised. In your case, it is quite possible that it was sleeping and unaware of you being there until you stepped on it. In America, rattlesnakes generally rattle, but I have stepped on one before that did not rattle even when I found myself standing on it. More and more accounts are coming about of rattlesnakes not rattling, giving a warning, because if they do, they are killed.

Naja siamensis (Spitting Cobras) often hiss and can spit, but not always do so. In Thai, cobras are referred to as งูเห่า (ngu hao: hissing snake) and spitting cobras as งูเห่าด่างพ่นพิษ (ngu hao dang pon pit: hissing mottled venom spitting snake) or in Isaan often as งูปลวก (ngu bluak: spitting snake). In the encounters that I have had with Naja siamensis, they have not spit; I guess that they are not accustomed to someone coming after them, not trying to kill them. Many of the Naja kaouthia (Monocled Cobras) I have caught did not go into a defensive display or hiss unless my first attempt to catch it (pinning its head down) failed. One encounter in the field that I had with an Ophiophagus hannah (individual Cobra) while in a wildlife sanctuary, it never hissed, hooded or made any kind of defensive display; it allowed me to take pictures, some taken from directly above, and went on its way.

Post by **SanukJoe** » August 12, 2009, 4:51 pm

Michael C wrote:Thank you, Joe; that confirms what I have seen from the shed skin and what I have been told by Wolfgang. Cobras and individual cobras generally, but not always gives a warning display when encountered. Exceptions are primarily when they are surprised. In your case, it is quite possible that it was sleeping and unaware of you being there until you stepped on it.

Thanks Michael.
I will take more pics when encountering snakes now that we have an expert on board =D>
I will send you pics of a beautiful lizard by email, like to know your comments, I caught it sitting on a young papaya tree and it was sitting still as a professional model

On topic again: this morning I saw a small snake fleeing away from me, about 60 cm long and 1.5 cm wide. I saw the colour red on the neck and immediately thought: Rednecked Keelback! But when I checked it was not the same. The one I saw had a brown stripe on either side of the body. I guess you cannot determine based on this little info unless you say the coloration varies a lot in Keelbacks....

Joe

Post by **polehawk** » August 24, 2009, 1:54 pm

fussychunk wrote:Michael, just watched a program on Sky 3 here in the UK about some bloke collecting snakes to take to Bangers and make antivenom, most of the show they was talking about a plant/root what the locals eat that almost kills the venom, they never named the root. The root looked like Galangal, have you come across this in your travels?

Michael C wrote:I may have seen that same documentary. Although there was some rather questionable information given in it and it seemed to be a rip-off of a much better locally produced National Geographic documentary (much of what National Geographic has been producing has not been good), I was interested in the analysis of the effects of the root on counteracting venom. There would have to be much more work done on this before I would ever suggest it as a treatment, but if it is indeed effective, it would be preferred to antivenin, which causes extreme reactions in a percentage of people worth consideration. People that work with venomous snakes that are bitten/have been bitten on numerous occasions develop an allergic reaction to antivenin that can kill them. This is the extreme reaction mentioned above, but can happen the first time, which is why they test a person's reaction to a small amount of antivenin before administrating it in any greater amount.

Saw this documentary last night on True Explore 1, Channel 45. Title of the show was "Venom Hunter" with Steve Backshall (an Aussie?). A fascinating and interesting show. Michael C's comment about the show's questionable veracity is noted. The show includes a Thai snake sorcerer who has been bitten 19 times by cobras, lost some fingers from the bites, and some videos of the shows they put on including a 5 year old kid teasing a snake. Star of the show is seen going up a tree after a 3.5 meter individual Cobra and playing with it on the ground. Gives one a scope on the size and speed of this highly poisonous elapid creature, nothing to be messing with IMO. If I ever encounter one on our property I will be scooping up the dogs and beating feet back towards the house while the snake, no doubt, will be beating feet, er...scales, in the other direction. I hope.

The root (ginseng or ginger?) in question was made into a foul tasting liquid concoction and also as a paste to be applied to the skin of the snake handlers. Thai herpetologists on the show seem convinced that the Thai villagers have immunity from the snake bites now. In laymen's terms, an interesting experiment under a microscope with cobra venom mixed with the star's saliva and then with root added with the point being that the chemical makeup of the root blocks the effects of the venom in a body. Hopefully, scientists will be doing more detailed research on the root in the future.

Post by **Michael C** » August 25, 2009, 9:06 am

Yes, Polehawk, that sounds like the same show. For the record, there was not a single Thai herpetologist on the show and to my knowledge there has never been a Thai herpetologist that has claimed people in that village have immunity from any snake venom. There are fewer than 20 herpetologists in all of Thailand; I know all of them. There are only around 20 herpetologists if you include graduate students (one of them who I already count as a herpetologist, because she has already co-authored a few papers and done work as a herpetologist).

To my knowledge, there still has not been any kind of scientific paper published on the effects of the root, which makes me believe that either the effects of the root were overstated (exaggeration for entertainment has become the cornerstone of many documentaries) or there was simply not enough evidence to support the claims (goes back to the first case). A good thing to remember about alternative or herbal 'medicine' is that they are either unproven or do not work at all; those that have been proven to work are now practised by real doctors.

The much better and earlier produced documentary covering the village for National Geographic showed that one of the people doing the show died from a fatal bite received doing a performance during the time they were making their documentary (there goes the claim of immunity). The old man, who ran the place, also died, but I am not sure whether it was from snake bite or from old age. Since then, an individual cobra village has become a place that I will never go back to. I took a young American herpetology student there early last year and was embarrassed about it, what it has now become. When the old man ran the place, I talked to him for about an hour and learned a lot from his experiences with individual Cobras, about their natural history and in captivity; it was well run, and the reptiles appeared well cared for. It is a real pity what it has turned into now.

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