Is Bombing the answer to Mideast violence and terror??

[tigerryan]

Peace in Iraq is being achieved with a military victory and a continued military occupation. I have listened to arguments that the enemy is regrouping for the next large counter surge then their will be a counter counter counter surge and madness and will go on for eternity This defeatist commentary has been part of all wars and battles. Strong men with the required intestinal fortitude will continue to do the heaving lifting in Iraq and Afghanistan. As of December of last year the Casualty rates have been falling. I do believe a long term presence is required in the middle East not unlike S. Korea, Germany, or Japan. I believe the Jihadis will continue to recruit and lay themselves down for their cause and In time they will learn it is their struggle that is futile not ours. We need a place for this war and I would prefer the sands of the Middle East over the buildings and train stations of western cities.
Doc, In response to the last post "Assume for a moment if this were a a valid argument and Palestine declared war on Israel and somehow were able to go in and seize 80% of Israel." I cant assume this nor could Isreal its a non starter. An attack like this would not be morally equivalent. Besides fairness is not the desired outcome after the loss of life and treasure.

[Doc]

We need a place for this war and I would prefer the sands of the Middle East over the buildings and train stations of western cities.

Uhhh... What war are you referring to? The so called "war on terrorism?"

Iraq was not a threat to America when we invaded it upon false pretenses... Most of the fighting in Iraq is between Iraqis - whom the US conveniently chooses to call terrorists to justify our continued presence in Iraq. It is, in essence, a civil war, started by the good old US of A. Yes - we get attacked on a regular basis primarilly because of our continued interference in the "natural order" of the Middle East.

Ultimately - we are creating terrorists. They will hit America again. That is a given. The terrorists in Iraq are simply following orders. They are the grunts of the organization. However, the master minds are still free and still plotting and planning.

Doc, In response to the last post "Assume for a moment if this were a a valid argument and Palestine declared war on Israel and somehow were able to go in and seize 80% of Israel." I cant assume this nor could Isreal its a non starter. An attack like this would not be morally equivalent. Besides fairness is not the desired outcome after the loss of life and treasure.

And what about the lives that have been lost by the Palestinians?

You seem to think that Israel is 100% right in all that they do. In my opinion, nothing could be further from the truth. Both sides are at fault - and both sides continue to heap fault upon fault. It will never be resolved until Israel and the US stop dictating to the Middle East how things are going to be and start trying to find reasonable resolutions. One reasonable resolution is for Israel to give back all that it has illegally taken.

[tigerryan]

Doc, I dont dislike you or your opinion Im just afraid you are going to get me killed. If you only supported the gulf war because of the chem/bio hazard assessment then I respect your outrage. However I suspect you would not have supported the war bases on any of the violations outlined by the UN security council. I supported the war halfway through the reading of the first of twenty UN violations and frankly supported the war based on the fact that Sadam looked at me funny in one of his pre war diatribes on TV. My beef with Sadam goes back to the first go round sixteen years ago. Frankly when saddam was hung I sat on my hands and knees in front of the TV clapping and giggling like a four year old watching the Wiggles. That's my baggage. I agree with you that the Jihadis will get a spike in recruitment out any success that we give them that why I think we need to maintain a strong presence in the region and not quit/lose/go home and just wait to have the children's daycare center down the street hit with a chlorine bomb, etc. We were unable to get Osama ten years ago because of (even in Clinton's own words) the lack of sufficient operational capabilities in the region to pull it off. I have a hard time trying to understand the argument for disengagement. Prior to gulf war two we had the two embassy bombing in Africa, the USS Cole, the barracks bombing in Riyadh and piles of other failed attempts one even in BKK if I remember right. In the US at least we have had relative security following the second gulf war. If the Jihadis are happy keeping the battle in the Middle East it suits me. I know that the amount of time the jihadis guys spend cleaning out their pants every day has increased dramatically in the last few months.
In conclusion.
1.Operationaly the US is just getting its ruck sack on in terms of weapons systems and tactics to defeat this threat. The Military is mission focused from soldier to procurement. The Taliban is fixing to get routed and the thugs in Iraq are going to see justice.
2. We have two large bases of operation in the region to continue spanking these guys whomever we determine is the deserving flavor of the month.
3. As far a the Israel Palestine issue goes I don't think the Palestinians have much of a card to play. The terror hand is not going to be a winner. I think they need to police their state and seek peace and focus on developing an economy. I am not in favor of Israel per se I am just calling it like I see it.
4. I believe a much longer view of this war in the Middle East must be taken I don't think peace is on the table but at least stability and hope is.
5. The notion that no peace can be had in Muslim land until the infidel has been expelled is a repulsive non starter with me. If this is the end game for these guys its going to be bombs and bullets for generations.

[kojack]

It will never be resolved until Israel and the US stop dictating to the Middle East how things are going to be and start trying to find reasonable resolutions. One reasonable resolution is for Israel to give back all that it has illegally taken

.

For all of you who forgot the hisorty :
The Israelis were very satisfied from the small land that the UN declared as the Jewsih state on 1947 ( which is far less then Israel had before June 1967 ) but the arabs thought it's too much and wanted it all and kick all the jews back to the sea.
7 arab countries were invade to the young state but thanks god ( only him, no one else help the jews ) they kicked the invaders out.

On 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan were one step before invading Israel again. Yes, Israel shoot the first shot and by that way save her neck ( on that time America wasn't on Israel side )

On August 2005, Israel withdraw from Gaza and since then the Palestinians launched hundreds of rockets from Gaza to south Israel cities and towns.

So on what " reasonable resolution " are we talking about ?

And the arabs began their aggression long time before the americans were supporting Israel.

[Ricohoc]

For all of you who forgot the hisorty :
The Israelis were very satisfied from the small land that the UN declared as the Jewsih state on 1947 ( which is far less then Israel had before June 1967 ) but the arabs thought it's too much and wanted it all and kick all the jews back to the sea.
7 arab countries were invade to the young state but thanks god ( only him, no one else help the jews ) they kicked the invaders out.

On 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan were one step before invading Israel again. Yes, Israel shoot the first shot and by that way save her neck ( on that time America wasn't on Israel side )

On August 2005, Israel withdraw from Gaza and since then the Palestinians launched hundreds of rockets from Gaza to soyth Israel cities and townes.

So on what " reasonable resolution " are we talking about ?

And the arabs began their aggression long time before the americans were supporting Israel.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Knowledge of history is very helpful, and I appreciate your bringing this information forward.
=D>

[Frankie 1]

I agree with Doc.

And... I think that the US created Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, they were the allies of the US when the US needed them. It are all political games, and mostly about oil and weapons trade.
For some countries it is ok to make political prisoners, discriminate and kill people. Turkey is one of them and even a NATO member. Kurdish people in Turkey have no rights at all, and the Armenians (1 million) are wiped out allready.
Many countries are doing business with China while they still occupy Tibet.

People praise Israel while they slowly kill all the Palestinians, who are starving to death since many years, because Israel will only allow them to live in ghetto's, without their land or economy.

People can point their fingers to freedom fighters and call them terrorists.
Maybe in worldwar2 our freedom fighters were terrorists in the eyes of the Nazi's.
The freedom fighters were also people who were starving to death, same as the Palestinians now. What other options do they have?
What do people know about the Palestinians? Did you know that most of them are Christians? Do you know anything about them? or do you only listen to onesided propaganda?
They are people who have a right to live, but Israel denies them that right systematically.

I think that when you call a freedom fighter a terrorist, then you need to look in the mirror.
How agressive are you? and do I have to agree with you because you know what is best for me?

What really scares me is when influential people start to play for God, and start to kill each other in the name of God.

[dbriggins]

Because I think that the Palestinians want Israel to be nonexistent!

The same argument could be easily be made about Israel wanting the Palestinians to be non-existent.

Hardly, Doc. So far, the only ones who have made genocide a part of their laws, publically stated it, and openly practiced it is the current Palestinian government. Israel may wish the Palestinians would all go away, but they have offered to redraw their borders to please the Palestinians, and were rejected at Oslo. Israel is guilty of many things, but genocide is not one of them.

[BKKSTAN]

Frankie 1 said:''What really scares me is when influential people start to play for God, and start to kill each other in the name of God.''

Isn't that what wars have been about since the beginnig?

[kojack]

To all of you who blame Israel as the responsible for the current situation, please take your time and watch the following clip ( 5 minutes ) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN_LxmkTSX4

[Frankie 1]

Palestinians:
have: only a little piece of land, zero economy, almost all houses are bombed, no jobs, no food, only a few guns and selfmade rockets. Every family has lost a lot of family members because of Israeli raids, cluster bombs, etc.

Israeli's:
Israel is a powerfull and rich country, with a good economy, one of the best, biggest and most modern army's of the region.

At which side is a genocide happening do you think? Which one of the two has to fight for their rights?

[Frankie 1]

I think it was Ghandi who said:
"It is not important who started a conflict, but it is important who will stop a conflict"

[kojack]

Palestinians:
have: only a little piece of land, zero economy, almost all houses are bombed, no jobs, no food, only a few guns and selfmade rockets. Every family has lost a lot of family members because of Israeli raids, cluster bombs, etc.

Israeli's:
Israel is a powerfull and rich country, with a good economy, one of the best, biggest and most modern army's of the region.

At which side is a genocide happening do you think? Which one of the two has to fight for their rights?

"All houses are bombed" ? same claiming that the americans kill all the iraqis.

" no job " - this is cos the corruption of the palestinian leaders who are stealing all the donated money to them self. Just to remind you that Suha Arafat ( the widow of ex palestinian leader ) holding stolen 800 million us$ at her swiss bank accounts.

[Ricohoc]

Palestinian leaders have historically acted in their own behalf.

During Clinton's talks with Arafat and Israel, the Israeli's were willing to concede 90% of what Arafat claimed to want ... including permanent pull outs from the Gaza Strip. Arafat still rejected the offer. The Palestinian leadership does not want peace unless it includes the elimination of Israel.

[Frankie 1]

And the story goes on and on.
I am not chosing sides, but I am trying to say that there are two sides to a story. And it would be nice to listen to both sides instead of only listening to onesided propaganda.

If you are an Israeli and have been hurt before, it doesnt mean that you have the right to do whatever you want to other people.
I think as a powerful nation they also have a responsibility, to stop and look at themself, they can't always play the part of the victim, to hide the fact that they are also an agressor, which doesn't make them better than the ones they fight against.

[Ricohoc]

And it would be nice to listen to both sides instead of only listening to onesided propaganda.

What is the propaganda?

[Frankie 1]

What is the propaganda?

mentioning only the parts of history that suits you, and "forgetting" other parts of history. Making a story onesided.

[Ricohoc]

What parts would you like to add that are historical fact? List what you think was left out or incorrect about those stated.

[Doc]

Frankie 1 said:''What really scares me is when influential people start to play for God, and start to kill each other in the name of God.''

Isn't that what wars have been about since the beginnig?

He11 is freezing over!

I agreed with Val earlier - and now I am agreeing with Stan. Oh my gawd!

Yes - it all is a religious war. Israel / Palestine. US / Iraq.

For some strange reason the US seems to think that it is their god mandated duty to spend money and lives to bring the message of democracy - as mandated by god - to the heathens around the world. They leave the heathens alone that hate the same people that we hate.

[marshallb66]

This is one subject that stirs my passion.

Violence does stop reciprocal violence.
Killing doesn

[BKKSTAN]

Nope