Does anyone else feel ashamed about what we did in Iraq?

[tutone]

I am irritated by the OP's use of the word WE.

As the operation Desert Storm was justified by all allied countries (Sadam occupied Kuwait and the allies kicked him out again) it was not the case with the Iraq invasion. This was a solely decided war crime by the US, based on fake CIA reports about mass destruction weapons in Iraq. As the CIA used to be in control of war areas (remember Vietnam and the CIA war in Lao) Mr. Commander in Chief Bush plus his entire staff of indoctrinated yeah-sayers backed by millions of (also indoctrinated) republicans decided to invade Iraq. Not alone but backed by allies. What to do as Bush knew very well that the CIA reports were fake. Telling lies to the allies that was the trick to do. And yes, English, Australian, French and other allies believed mister Bush on his blue eyes and sent troops to Iraq.

What amazed me and still amazes me is the lack of appropriate reaction of the allies when it came out that there were no mass destruction weapons at all and that the whole invasion was an act of aggression directed by the US.

Having said that I repeat that the whole war was a US decision based on lies and the US is totally responsible for all the lost lives.
Ashamed should feel those responsible in the US, not the soldiers who did what was ordered.
Ashamed should also feel those western governments who believed Mr. Bush.

When using the word WE the OP makes all of us accomplishes of that tremendous US aggressive act.

Texpat you are sinking below your own low level: Iraq was not liberated as you state, it was invaded and occupied.
If it was such a good act, why not "liberate" North Korea, Myanmar, Venezuela etcetera? You see what a highly intelligent remark you made?

Joe

I totally agree with the above statements. I am from the U.S. but I do not feel ashamed. To me being ashamed is a personal reaction to personal actions. I feel more disgusted than anything else. I have from the very beginning always maintained both publicly and privately that the U.S. involvement in Iraq was a huge mistake and was based on lies and misinformation, primarily to bolster big business and political positions (both Democratic and Republican). All it has done is to further polarize the American people over issues such as freedom of religion and speech. It has worsened our image in international relations, and has been a huge drain on our resources and a major factor in our economic downturn. Same for Afghanistan. I don't care if Afghanistan or Iraq are terrorist training grounds. At least we know where they are. Troops on the ground in these countries will never solve the problem. America as the world's policeman has never worked since the end of the Korean conflict and it is way beyond the time to change our policies and stop being a nation that by its very existence feels it is always right. IMHO.

[Texpat]

I'm shocked, but not surprised by what European settlers did to the American Indians. And the fact that they brought in so many African slaves.

A slaughter of humanity is inexcusable. A coalition to oust a dictatorial regime is commendable.

The OP is a troll.

[tigerryan]

Hey D What was your unit, company and MOS? I have never met a single swinging dick that felt the way about his service as you do.

[Texpat]

He's a Brittle. Give him a few days to research.

[kjellsnell]

yes........ i feel a shamed about cilling people

[TJ]

While I do not feel ashamed myself for that U.S. politicians and others that force Americans into fighting foreign wars. I am convinced that the U.S. should have stayed out of all foreign wars, wars not on American soil. This was President Washington's advice to the nation. Smarter politics would have kept the U.S. out of the War of 1812 that was waged almost entirely in the U.S.

Wars were are mostly responsible for the massive growth of the government and installing a tyranical bureaucracy. They have caused a great deterioration of the American traditions and culture. Every war greatly damaged the American people.

I was very disappointed to learn that Americans really did kill so many Indians, usually to acquire land occupied by the Indians. Only a few American groups, such as the Quakers, treated Indians as human beings and tried to assimilate with them.

[Khun Paul]

The only thing I fell ashamed about is the fact on the first occasion we should have done the job properly not namby pambering about . Gone to Baghdad and finished with the arrest and probable execution of Saddam then. This current situation would not now be a long drawn out problem.

[DesertStorm]

Thanks, friends, for turning this thread back into an intelligent one!

I've enjoyed reading your replies and can understand people's points of view from both sides.

One poster made a comment about my use of the word 'we'.

I've been a 'we' twice.

Once in active combat. Few can say that.

The other as a taxpayer. Everybody can say that.

[DesertStorm]

Hey D What was your unit, company and MOS? I have never met a single swinging dick that felt the way about his service as you do.

Well you have now, tigerryan!!! And believe me, there are lots of us!

I was in a spec ops unit by the way, so I'm not allowed to post that info on a public forum...

...over beers though!

[DesertStorm]

He's a Brittle. Give him a few days to research.

What part of Texas are you from, Tex?

I'm a T City boy.

[SanukJoe]

I'm shocked, but not surprised by what European settlers did to the American Indians. And the fact that they brought in so many African slaves. Very much on topic... BTW it makes all US people except the original inhabitants immigrants. And these immigrants have problems with new immigrants. What a nice way of thinking

A slaughter of humanity is inexcusable. A coalition to oust a dictatorial regime is commendable.

the only people to end a dictatorship are the people of THAT country and certainly not the US!
Examples enough: nearly the whole East Block in Europe was "cleaned" by their own people, several Central and South American countries took care of dictators themselves, the same in Africa. The World doesn't need the US to interfere.
Several wars have been fought (and lost) outside the US (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and next year Afghanistan. The latter will be taken over by the Taliban again, using also their US weapons as they got them from the US to fight the Russians remember?

Joe

[fredwilliams]

Oi! I've just got back from two days visiting the in-laws and I find people on here bashing my new neighbour.

I'm the one that introduced him to the forum and he's real. And you (don't) want to see the size of him!

[SanukJoe]

He was perceived as a real threat by me as I believed that he had WMD's.as I believed that he was the Enemy of the West,as I believed that he would probably be supportive of Al Queda in their quest to terrorize the West!
That shows you were one of millions of BELIEVERS who were indoctrinated by the Bush government

I'm glad that Saddam was all BS,that there were no WMD's left because I'm not confident that we could have prevented their proliferation and use throughout the World!
Total fantasy Stan, they were not there, never have been, Sadam was crazy enough to use them if he would have had the possibility.

The fact that no WMD's were found is really immaterial and the fact that the ''Green Zone'' was an excellent movie,doesn't convince me that their was a conspiracy to lie as an excuse to attack either!!
You call it immaterial, I call it proof of an unnecessary war!

Saddam was given more than enough time and opportunity to reveal the destruction of those weapons he had possessed and used in the past.He left us no choice,but to attack ,as the only defense we had with all the possible destruction that we most probably would have suffered,if in fact he had , used or passed on the weapons to others!
Used in the past? Please explain.
Destruction of the weapons? Why? He could use them, he would be killed anyway...

Quote: He left us no choice,but to attack
Many choices apart from this no-no choice.

It must be great for those liberals that opposed the attack,to be able to lam bast The USA because there were no WMD's,which makes them look so right.
Have you considered the possibility that they ARE/WERE right?

I don't feel ashamed,but think it is a shame that so many mistakes were made because of the lack of real human intelligence about the culture of the people and a lack of real human military intelligence was lacking.I think it was a shame that politicians such as Rumsfelt prosecuted the war in the manner they did instead of securing the country with enough troops initially,I think it a shame that wars are needed to settle things,I think it a shame that in every war ever fought,many many many mistakes have been made!
Well said Stan. One of the biggest mistakes made was that nobody seemed to know the basis of the Iraqi population. Divided in Sunnites and Shiites who were enemies since ages. Shiites being a majority in Iraq (but a minority in the Islam world) were suppressed by Sunnites led by the long time president Sadam Hussein. So when you take away the Sunnites' power you will see a revolution of Shiites and a reverse suppression of Sunnites by them. The allied forces had no idea of that just invaded the country, the result is known.

I would ask those that feel ashamed,will you also feel ashamed when we abandon Afghanistan,just as we did before?
Of course. It's a repeated effect. The positive thing for the Afghans is that the Taliban were taken off power but IMO as soon as the allied forces leave the Taliban will take over again.
Think of all military and civil deaths and tell me it was the right thing to do

Joe

PS Stan, of course if I write a post it contains my personal opinion. Even facts IMO can not be true facts if someone lied to me or otherwise misinformed me. A post on a forum is personal.

[rufus]

As Australia was party to the deception, and the invasion, my answer is YES.

I agree totally with this and would go further and argue that Bush, Blair and Howard should be tried as war criminals.

[Aardvark]

Settle down Rufus, we are all Slaves to Big Business and things won't change in our life time. Greed is all powerful

[Aardvark]

Who Said Tex was Inteligent

[tigerryan]

Hey DS You could put all the operators from the GW1 in a bar stall in Nutty and going yellowbelly on the mission aint in the cards.
I have met lots and lots of super high speed guys like you in Thailand in the middle of various stages of Bovine Scathology, its great fun to chat with them and so rewarding . I would hate to blow your super top secret cover but I understand how you don't know what your outfit is or cant say. You call yourself a "boy" from texas city (hey aint that were BP is from and only Brits say bla bla "city boy". In the US that would mean your black ops are actually black).

Put up and slap down or pop smoke pole smoke and with your great operator background you know what all that means.

[Farang1]

I agree with Tutone in that I am not ashamed for what was done in Iraq. I do feel disgust and disappointment that the US took the actions it did. Yes, Saddam deserved what he got. But, it wasn't the US's place to initiate it. I have worked in Iraq for the past 7 years. The Iraqis I have talked to that told me what Saddam and his henchmen did to the Shiites and Kurds goes way beyond sadistic.

We should have finish the job during Desert Storm instead of stopping at the border and abandoning the Bedouins and Iraqi people. A lot of people lost their lives in the wave of wrath from Saddam.

I also agree that it is not the US's place to bring the other nations to the "light". I came across this editorial that, I think fits right in here.

In the most recent Freedom House ranking, 47 countries (24 percent) were rated Not Free, 58 countries (30) Partly Free and 89 Free (46 percent). Of the 60 countries on the Failed States Index, however, half are Not Free and the other half only Partly Free.

There are therefore no countries in the world that are both unstable and democratic. As a result, helping faltering regimes defend themselves because they supposedly face a terrorism problem, which may somehow morph into a threat to the United States, will often just mean assisting repressive governments defend themselves against their own people.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100820/cm ... l0YXJ5c3U-

[rick]

We will never know if the second Iraq war was a big mistake or not. What we can say, is it was not a resounding success. It has taken 7 years so far, and not completely over yet. Between 2-3% of the Iraqi population died in this period; maybe not a lot you think. Well, put it in comparison to casualty rates in WW2. USA 0.3%; UK 1%, France 1.3%. Germany 8%, USSR 14%. Ok not a Russia, but if you take France as an example, they fought briefly (like Iraq), got invaded twice and lived under occupation for over 4 years. Well, Iraq was twice as bad. Do not expect any gratitude.

I think you can say WW2 could not really have been avoided. But what was the point of invading Iraq? WMD - the weapons inspectors (who were the ones best placed to know) said there could be little left. The Iraqi military was a broken force incapable of invading any significant country in the region ( the invasion showed that). Sadaam Hussein was an evil dictator - as are plenty of other world leaders. What did 'Freedom' bring to Iraq? Descent into Anarchy, near civil war and gave Jihadis a wonderful excuse to create mayhem in the name of God. Did it bring Democracy? They had free elections yes, but 6 months on still cannot form a government due to a lack of willingness to compromise.

What did USA get out of it? well, on the plus side all the terrorists went there and did not bother with the states. Also some oil. On the negative? 3,000 dead and a F***ing big debt.

What a waste.

[LoveDaBlues]

Had we (USA) not invaded Iraq the following question must be asked:

Would Iraq have attacked the United States? If the answer is no then the invasion by the USA was wrong. If the answer is yes then the invasion by the USA was right.