Gun Control

[SJP17]

The fact remains that no one from the NRA or one of its members has ever been involved in one of these nutbag mass shootings.

If the law-abiding gun owners were the problem, believe me, you would know it and be able to identify them.

NRA members have done plenty of murders and killings using legally bought weapons as members.

http://addictinginfo.com/2015/12/04/lic ... ood-video/

http://americannewsx.com/hot-off-the-pr ... eet-video/

They were law-abiding gun owners and couldn't be identified.

[tigerryan]

Thais look at all of us foreigners as Farangs the difference we all hold dear don't matter we are just farangs. When ISIS shot up the Paris concert and blew up the Manchester concert it was just a soft target for the terrorists and we could all get our head around ISIS was using the "just farangs mentality". The trouble I'm having with the Las Vegas tragedy is was the country music concert just a easy soft target or were these folks targeted because of their general pro conservative and generally pro Trump conservative beliefs. We can all agree that anyone who can do something like this has a element of nut job associated with them but if this guy acted against a political class of folks this is a case of political terrorism. I think people are just running wild with gun control issues when we don't even know what happened here. If this was political in its targeting its terrorism plain and simple and we as Americans should get the same deference on the availability of weapons and bomb making supplies as France and England did during there horrible events. We need more info before we get all spun up on ancillary public policy issues.

[Lone Star]

The fact remains that no one from the NRA or one of its members has ever been involved in one of these nutbag mass shootings.

If the law-abiding gun owners were the problem, believe me, you would know it and be able to identify them.

NRA members have done plenty of murders and killings using legally bought weapons as members.

http://addictinginfo.com/2015/12/04/lic ... ood-video/

http://americannewsx.com/hot-off-the-pr ... eet-video/

They were law-abiding gun owners and couldn't be identified.

You better read those articles again. Neither one of those articles says that either one of those shooters were NRA members. After you do that, please go find some reliable sources.

Being "a poster boy for the NRA" only means that the shooter possessed similar characteristics of members of the NRA. Nothing in the article tied him to the NRA, and if he was a member, they would have gone on and on about it. Not a word about his membership.

The article about the woman shooter never mentions the NRA again after the headline.

[papafarang]

"If the law-abiding gun owners were the problem, believe me, you would know it and be able to identify them."

apparently he was a law abiding gun owner, and one of the guns was a fully auto machine gun legally sold in vegas due to the fact it was made before 1986. and I don't think it is compulsory to be a member of the NRA to be a fruitcase.
I think there is too much misunderstanding going on in this thread, I think the americans must get a grip on how it's viewed. to us brits, and most of the world , just ask. Being a member of the NRA is up there with membership of the KKK, or being part of some strange demonic cult. everyone needs a hobby, some guys like fixing cars , some guys are into carpentry, reading , hiking , hundreds of things to do. but guys in garages polishing their guns in the hope a stranger knocks on there door so he can shoot them is a bit weird to say the least. me I think guns should be left to the forces to play with not civilians. one of the most disturbing and quite frankly true is americans do need guns, to defend themselves against their own government , isn't that what the second amendment is all about ? I don't think when it was written they had in mind shooting people for stealing cars, in the uk home burglary is now not even investigated by the police , it's rated like shoplifting or having a push bike stolen. nothing to worry about, and sure shooting someone for it is a bit excessive,
But hey it is what it is, America is like that. loads of nutters, don't worry not American bashing, there's plenty of nutters in the middle east, . if someone said to me in a bar "i'm a member of the NRA" you might as well have said " i'm a member of isis" . I would simply get up and move to another part of the bar, because subconsciously alarm bells went off in my head.
and sorry if it offends ..but it is what it is, the NRA don't fund schools for poor kids in Africa do they

[PAPA Z]

Tigerryan
& PappaFarrang,
Thanks for providing some reasonable insight in this obviously gone awry thread.
I suppose, we “nutter” Americans indeed love our guns (although we don’t really sit around the garage polishing them in anticipation to shoot somebody) and love to have them because we can. We actually keep them locked up in safes.
We don’t expect anyone to agree, like, condone, or understand, etc. this fact. It is what it is.
Having the right to own weapons doesn’t translate into a right to maniacally shoot people like fish in a barrel. There is a huge responsibility that goes along with owning weapons, and the majority of us registered owners take that responsibility extremely seriously. Many of the gun owners I know, have firing pins removed from most of the weapons they own. And the ones they keep fire ready are very securely tucked away. It just bugs us I guess that the impression most out there have of us is that we’re just hanging out in our drawers in our living rooms with a cache of weapons laying around us.

[papafarang]

That's exactly it Papa Z , that is what everyone thinks americans do. I suppose the drivel pumped out by TV studios don't help, and the odd massacre of children sort of reinforces the stereo type view. Like us Brits we are viewed as being slightly potty posh people that play croquet who eat cake and revel in cold damp weather because it gives us something to complain about, ask any American and the weird ideas they have of us are quite amusing. I mean if without actually thinking deeply , what are the first things you think if I give you two words . British + Tea ? now what picture do you get in your head ? same with us say, American + gun, the picture in my head is some fat slob chewing Tabaco and spitting it on the floor , while he rubs his rifle in a sexual manner and laughing at black folk hanging from the tree. maybe the NRA aggressive attitude don't help, but that's the worlds image and America is stuck with it.
A bit like the president, most people thing Trumb is the epitome of American culture, kinda sleazy like . fake tan man and all that. here's an image , maybe stuck in my head from watching too much dross as a child .

[12345]

Just a quick observation:

300 million firearms in the USA, more then the 263 million motor vehicles.

Yet, almost 3 times as many people are killed, and 150 times as many injured by vehicles than firearms.

Nobody is trying to take your vehicles away. Driving a privilege, not a right guaranteed by the Constitution. Driving by licenced operation, firearms being self monitoring hobby.

We won't even mention the ills of alcohol or tobacco products.

..........nuff said

Some 13,286 people were killed, and 26,819 people were injured in the US by firearms in 2015
estimates 38,300 people were killed and 4.4 million injured on U.S. roads in 2015

OK, curious, and since I mentioned it:
Drinking too much can harm your health. Excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 deaths and 2.5 million years of potential life lost (YPLL) each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010, shortening the lives of those who died by an average of 30 years.

Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day

Where's the outrage ???

Now which of these 4 things are more dangerous ? Which one are headliners every time there's an oops ?

If anyone really cares, ban alcohol and cig first and foremost, then regulate vehicle driving a wee bit better before worrying about firearms.

[PAPA Z]

Papa Farang!
You’re one funny MF! Boss Hogg? Really?
I’d all but forgotten about him.
Yes, unfortunately pre conceived notions about people from different countries are neither true nor fair to their entire populations.
Yes, there are racists in Britain, Oz and the US.
Yes there are the type of Brits you describe, and there are the type of Americans you describe. But, those characterizations don’t apply to all people within the respective countries.
We are all byproducts of our environments.
Most Americans, just can’t understand why the rest of the world is so obsessed with telling us that our Country’s Constitution is wrong based on our support of the 2nd Amendment, or any other law of our land which we may support, and why it angers so many that we revere the rights which were bestowed upon us.
I’m certain that if citizens of other countries had the same situation they would take the same point of view.

[vincemunday]

Well done the American constitution for allowing citizens to bear arms, without a doubt there is a rapidly growing number of people in the UK who would also like to have access to a gun. Despite what some misguided Liberals might think, lots of people (myself included) realise that lighting candles, singing songs, sending thoughts, prayers and carrying on as usual will do nothing to stop the tide of hatred that is sweeping Europe and the rest of the world and feel that the only way to fight fire is with fire. This attack was absolutely abominable, unforgivable and my heart goes out to the people left behind to grieve but i shan't be shan't be standing in a circle holding hands and praying to forgive the man man that committed this heinous attack either. Nor in my opinion can you blame the gun laws, it's already proven that where guns aren't accessible these lunatics will use lorries, vans, cars, hatchets, machetes, knives etc and if we put concrete blocks on the roads they will use motorbikes or some other means.

[PAPA Z]

Vince Munday,
A reasonable person after all? Hmmm...

[papafarang]

so true vince , you don't need a gun to kill a whole load of people. as we in Europe are discovering. in fact the terrorists have figured that out too. Funny I thought about that the other day, and it's odd that it's not happened in the states yet. thing is though they are terrorists , so there are ways of identifying them, the issue with guns as far as I can see is the fact that so many are available off the shelf, seems its like buying a can of red bull or a pack of chewing gum. plenty of people gunned down by illegal guns, and yes sadly its a lot of black people shooting each other. but it turns out a lot of these nut jobs hold guns legally, which means the checks are just not good enough, perhaps to get a gun you need a shrink to sign you off, the other issue is people not keeping them secure enough. but as for owning a gun there isn't a problem . it's just who owns one that's a problem.

[vincemunday]

It could be argued that all these potential terrorists shouldn't be allowed to own or rent a vehicle, they shouldn't be able to go on to Amazon and buy the ingredients to make a bomb because we know them and they're potentially dangerous right? This guy was a multi millionaire business owner not some nutter, he would have passed the UK gun licensing laws every day of the week, how do you prevent someone like that owning a gun? It is completely impossible to second guess who might be a mass murderer and what means they might use to kill and maim.

[Lone Star]

It could be argued that all these potential terrorists shouldn't be allowed to own or rent a vehicle, they shouldn't be able to go on to Amazon and buy the ingredients to make a bomb because we know them and they're potentially dangerous right? This guy was a multi millionaire business owner not some nutter, he would have passed the UK gun licensing laws every day of the week, how do you prevent someone like that owning a gun? It is completely impossible to second guess who might be a mass murderer and what means they might use to kill and maim.

I said quite a bit of this earlier in this thread.

Agree with both of your posts here.

There is no way to stop sinister people in an imperfect world. They will find a way even if guns are outlawed.

Gun free zones in the US are where most of these atrocities occur. So the law-abiding citizen comes unarmed. We know the result.

[Lone Star]

and sorry if it offends ..but it is what it is, the NRA don't fund schools for poor kids in Africa do they

Sandwich makers don't fund schools either because it's not their role.

The NRA is there to defend the 2nd Amendment and promote responsible gun ownership and gun safety.

[parrot]

I'm a believer in the power of photos......like the one taken of Thich Quang Duk or Nguyen Ngok Loan or of the prison abuses at Abu Ghriab.
Instead of seeing the grieving families of Sandy Hook and Columbine and Las Vegas, maybe we should be seeing photos of the bloodied dead 6 and 7 year old children huddled in a corner of their classroom or the blood and guts of high schoolers and country music fans as they gasp their last breaths. Photos none of us want to see, but then, none of us wanted to see the photo of Phan Thị Kim Phúc OOnt.......but we did, and for many of us, it was a life changing photo.

[SJP17]

If you look at this in a rational way you can say more than likely the 2nd Amendment stays there is too much pro gun interest in political lobbying, fair democracy it is not because of the huge memberships of both the Republicans and Democrats, US has become a two party state whose politics is restricted to these two parties. Third parties are constitutionally valid but considering these giants ruling, it is their game and they have made it quite difficult for any third party to emerge successfully. So it is just either the Republicans or the Democrats and candidates chosen and manipulated by the powerful and elite. Lobbying and fundraising being legal puts more power in hands of the wealthy even though individually they might not even vote !, that and the fact guns = jobs and $$$$$$$$ to the economy, whether they try and tighten rules on ownership, gun types or number of guns remains to be seen.

I guess its a case of sticking with it and suffering the consequences as deadly rampages are happening more often and claiming more American lives.

[BigRick808]

Good article from Mises.org: https://mises.org/blog/gun-control-fail ... and-canada

Also excellent videos by Stephan Molyneux in the comments section.

The U.S. has the 3rd lowest rate in all of the Americas, and lower than several European nations, and a couple EU members.

[BigRick808]

Tyranny of the State vs. peaceful citizens wanting to be free: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APsHNIrS7-s

Don't think this can't get worse. Don't think this can't happen to you!

[jimjay]

guess what the NRA has indicated they might support eliminating the bump stock dealy.

[tamada]

Gotta love the perpetual deflectors who post statistics from the UK that they claim supports their hopelessly misinformed opinion that gun control does not work. Or alternatively post how bad gun homicide rates are in our chosen home here in Thailand. Obfuscate much?

Yes, gun murders peaked rapidly after the 1997 introduction of UK gun controls but they glibly ignore that much more recently, the numbers are on a significant and consistent downward trend. They make much of this immediate post-control surges in both Canada and the UK without acknowledging that the end result has been more favorable for prolonged life. Maybe the 'armed thugs' that they frequently suggest will take over the land if they give up their arms were all on a last-minute shooting binge which gradually dried up as, get this... the supply of illegal guns dried up?

As for Thailand, the land of lax law enforcement, why on earth bother to mention it? I am not sure what gun control laws Thailand has beyond the time-served mantra that 'farangs cannot'... but I would wager that a fair few Americans here handily manage to bypass that. But even if they did have some sensible restrictions here, the notion that the RTP will enforce them is a complete non-starter. In case they haven't noticed, it's pretty much a free-for-all when it comes to breaking the law and getting away with it in LOS. How can Thailand's illegal gun ownership and related higher murder rates be totally twisted to make an argument against enforcement by 'real' police of practical and legal restrictions? Nobody really wants to take away your legal and registered hand gun or hunting rifle that you are licensed and trained in using. But war weapons?

I wonder how many card-carrying NRA members are somewhat disconcerted by the NRA's hot-of-the-press pleas to regulate the 'bump stock' industry. Who would have thought, eh? However, I imagine that the many manufacturers of these abhorrent add-on's are making a killing (sic) right now. Some repeatedly claim the NRA stands "to defend the 2nd Amendment and promote responsible gun ownership and gun safety." Where has the NRA been on that last part when these devices started appearing on the market. AFAIK, they didn't suddenly appear the week before the Vegas shooter introduced them to the wider world.

Gun control laws are not a 'silver bullet (pardon the pun) for an overnight solution to the undeniable problem of people dying as a result of being shot (spare us the cars don't kill people either obfuscation) but if you don't seriously embrace gun control, you will never, ever reap any benefits.