Deaths in Bangkok

[maaka]

I am getting lost lads..Dero, where did Jack accuse you of an ideal you didnt hold in this thread..I backtracked and cannot find such a comment..oh he had a swipe at me, but that was just his Ozzie humor and I took nothing from it. After all we are ANZAC's.. but I did take umbrage to your comment and reference that half of us were ignorant, and as such should button our lip.

this is a forum Dero if you had forgotten, a type of chatroom where people are supposed to toss about their opinions and ideas, freely and without predjuice. Dont get me wrong, I do not favour a member cuckholding another members self respect. I believe everyone is entitled to be heard fairly no matter if their opinion is way out in left field, or is totally bizarre..they are entitled just as much as you are to have a say..I would never tell you to button your lip or insinuate that you maybe ignorant..I do not know why you think some of us should keep a low profile, a low profile from who?..what are you scared that you will be lumped in with the ignorant ones, or some such thing, by some third party who views this website..

if Jack had a swipe at you on another thread, then I wish you would reply on that same thread, and not jump across threads and confuse matters..

as to this thread..Probably no one is ever going to find out the truth of what went down in Bangkok, or who did what first, or if it was rubber bullets, so finding the true facts is impossible..furthermore, there dont seem to be many thais on this site to enlighten us further into the world of thai politics, red shirt ideals, or the local man in the streets viewpoint, and I am sure no government offical is going to come online and give us the real political facts, so all thats left is for us as cowboys living in an indian world, is to circle our wagons, sit down around our computer campfire, and spectulate as to what the natives are up too...

[Bandung_Dero]

I am getting lost lads..Dero, where did Jack accuse you of an ideal you didnt hold in this thread..I backtracked and cannot find such a comment..

Look again! Another pet hate is unnecessary quoting. Anyway Jack and I go back a number of years now and can handle a dig in the ribs from each other, either written or physical.

[old-timer]

Anyway Jack and I go back a number of years now and can handle a dig in the ribs from each other, either written or physical.

I'd like to see the physical one,

moving on, the reporting of the violence and deaths in Thailand is now as widespread as you can imagine. How much more damage can done ? Thailand is imploding in they eyes of foreigners. It looks like the situation will get worse before it get's better.

OT..........

[jackspratt]

I think you will find Dero was using "physical" in the sense of live (face to face), as opposed to over the internet.

[old-timer]

Dero was using "physical" in the sense of live (face to face)

That's what I was thinking as well.

OT.....

[Bangsean_girl]

For some reason, something has brought me back to talk on this kinda thread (political) again. I'd say my mouth is itching once it comes to political talk (the Thai pharse "Ones mouth is itching" means you so want to discuss or talking about something so much that you could not help it) Tho, I didn't want to be involed much as many people from pervious post think I have such a strong view about red while I think my view was as smooth as silk!! lol

Anyway, I think this country need to be cleaned, and thing has got to get back in the proper way where people feel like everyone is being treat fairly not just one side. I think most of the red shirt they are at the point that Thanksin is nothing for them but the true and real democracy is....

Sometime its buging me when people say why you have to fight for the only one person, Thanksin... it is not right! Of course, for some of the red, they love Thanksin, and I admit I like the way he has developed Thailand when he was the PM, but if you ask whether it is okay or not to get him back here, I'd say I don't not care. All I want is fairness to every class of Thailand, either; poor or rich they all should being treat the same as a human. I don't expect a 100 percent fairness in this country coz I know it is impossible,but for what happend during the past 3 years is too much that most of the poor have to leave their farms to fight!

Let's get to the point (Blood in BKK)- Some people might think the red has been so violence and they are like a mob that is out of control. However, if you have watched their chanel (people chanel). The leaders keep saying again and again and again and again that "WE NEED TO FIGHT WITH PEACE ,otherwise; we couldn't win! and whoever not fight with peace please don't fight with us because we only want peace" that is the reason why some groups who support redshirt has got to seperate from the UDD because they tend to be violence. First of all you need to realised that the red shirt has got no support from ANY "POO YAI" (big people) at all. The main of us are farmer, Taxi, Motercycle rider, labour, teachers, and some small amount of business people etc. Even we fight with peace people hate us, so why would we want any violence!! And yes most people who hate the red are those who belive they are hi-so, educated, perfect, sophisticated etc, They never bother about any changes since they have already got it all while the poor has miserable life that they got to the point they need to fight and change.

I belive that in every fight btw red shirt and goverment, there always be someone from goverment or whoever side trying to discredit the red. For example, back on the fight last Songkarn when the news says the red were stole over 20 buses and fired them, after that the red leader asking the policeman to catch those red who did that, but there were none being caught from the action. The policeman would not do it!! Even us red shirt want to know who is doing all those violece thing, but it is all seem to be quiet.There were not even one person who own the bus go to make a report either! If you follow the news the red leader always urge the policeman to find those red and put in jail; none was caught so does the yellow who close the airport hmm....

All in all, I think it is very easy to judge whether the red is violence or not for you guys who is living in Udonthani(the redshirt capital city)!! I belive most of you here know what kind of the red shirt are like very well. I'm pretty sure for some people might even have a wife who support the red , and would you belive that they would go and make a bomb in Bkk? come on !!! The isarn people is the very friendliness people, They are having a very hard life. However, they never complaint about it , they always seem to be happy to have what they got!! But look what happend now??? Most of them leave their beloving home, farm, buffoloes,cows to be in the hot road in Bkk calling Abhisit to dissolves the parliament !! oh and please don't looking down on them by saying they got paid to do it! If they was getting paid to do it they would have come home as soon as they get chance, and if Thanksin paid people to do that why didn't he pay them since there was the yellow? why he waited too long to make this red group!! If they weren't the yellow they wouldn't have been the red today! and yes the poor people is develoing as Thailand is...

[trubrit]

Good post BG. It virtually reflects what my wife and many of her friends are saying. Most of whom are teachers or govt workers not just poor , uneducated farmers as the yellows try to suggest .I sincerely hope they get what they are fighting for, the chance to be treated equally without further blood shed on either side. Doesn't seem too much to ask for as a farang, but obviously in Thailand, the so called elite are desperate to cling on to the last vestige of power . They may succeed this time but soon the time will come . Fancy being a Thai version of Maggie Thatcher?

[Aardvark]

For some reason, something has brought me back to talk on this kinda thread (political) again. I'd say my mouth is itching once it comes to political talk (the Thai pharse "Ones mouth is itching" means you so want to discuss or talking about something so much that you could not help it) Tho, I didn't want to be involed much as many people from pervious post think I have such a strong view about red while I think my view was as smooth as silk!! lol

Anyway, I think this country need to be cleaned, and thing has got to get back in the proper way where people feel like everyone is being treat fairly not just one side. I think most of the red shirt they are at the point that Thanksin is nothing for them but the true and real democracy is....

Sometime its buging me when people say why you have to fight for the only one person, Thanksin... it is not right! Of course, for some of the red, they love Thanksin, and I admit I like the way he has developed Thailand when he was the PM, but if you ask whether it is okay or not to get him back here, I'd say I don't not care. All I want is fairness to every class of Thailand, either; poor or rich they all should being treat the same as a human. I don't expect a 100 percent fairness in this country coz I know it is impossible,but for what happend during the past 3 years is too much that most of the poor have to leave their farms to fight!

Let's get to the point (Blood in BKK)- Some people might think the red has been so violence and they are like a mob that is out of control. However, if you have watched their chanel (people chanel). The leaders keep saying again and again and again and again that "WE NEED TO FIGHT WITH PEACE ,otherwise; we couldn't win! and whoever not fight with peace please don't fight with us because we only want peace" that is the reason why some groups who support redshirt has got to seperate from the UDD because they tend to be violence. First of all you need to realised that the red shirt has got no support from ANY "POO YAI" (big people) at all. The main of us are farmer, Taxi, Motercycle rider, labour, teachers, and some small amount of business people etc. Even we fight with peace people hate us, so why would we want any violence!! And yes most people who hate the red are those who belive they are hi-so, educated, perfect, sophisticated etc, They never bother about any changes since they have already got it all while the poor has miserable life that they got to the point they need to fight and change.

I belive that in every fight btw red shirt and goverment, there always be someone from goverment or whoever side trying to discredit the red. For example, back on the fight last Songkarn when the news says the red were stole over 20 buses and fired them, after that the red leader asking the policeman to catch those red who did that, but there were none being caught from the action. The policeman would not do it!! Even us red shirt want to know who is doing all those violece thing, but it is all seem to be quiet.There were not even one person who own the bus go to make a report either! If you follow the news the red leader always urge the policeman to find those red and put in jail; none was caught so does the yellow who close the airport hmm....

All in all, I think it is very easy to judge whether the red is violence or not for you guys who is living in Udonthani(the redshirt capital city)!! I belive most of you here know what kind of the red shirt are like very well. I'm pretty sure for some people might even have a wife who support the red , and would you belive that they would go and make a bomb in Bkk? come on !!! The isarn people is the very friendliness people, They are having a very hard life. However, they never complaint about it , they always seem to be happy to have what they got!! But look what happend now??? Most of them leave their beloving home, farm, buffoloes,cows to be in the hot road in Bkk calling Abhisit to dissolves the parliament !! oh and please don't looking down on them by saying they got paid to do it! If they was getting paid to do it they would have come home as soon as they get chance, and if Thanksin paid people to do that why didn't he pay them since there was the yellow? why he waited too long to make this red group!! If they weren't the yellow they wouldn't have been the red today! and yes the poor people is develoing as Thailand is...

As always BG you have articulated yourself well, and congratulations to you for that. I too support the Red movement and Salute them for their patients and friendly manner as well as there Courage under extremely difficult circumstances. Good luck in your quest for freedom and Democracy and an equal share in your own Country =D> =D>

[Kaiheitai]

Watched some of the videos myself and came away with a few things; first abrupt gunfire but troops held their ground, this tells me they probably weren't receiving live fire at that time, not sure what they were delivering (ie rubber or live). Then two large explosions, looks like 40mm HE rounds from a M-79 or M-203 (likely M79 given recent historical factors), given the time between blasts it seems like a single shooter reloading (M79 breech action), surprised he laid down two rounds, either way he put rounds down range and then likely high tailed it out so as not compromise his position which would have been somewhat exposed (takes a little longer to aim and fire 40mm than assault rifle). Pretty accurate fire and looks like it caused a large number of the military's casualties, including the two downed brass (unless that was sniper action which would have been impressive given the lighting and the mass of troops, either way pretty "lucky" if that was the intention). Then videos show passerbys showing off various rounds, green shotgun shells are "less than lethal" rubber sabot rounds (the rubber things with the fins) but saw some red shells as well which I assume is live ammo. Also one guy shows of a shell (at ThaiFAQ vid) which looks not like 5.56mm (standard NATO- Thai issue M16 ammo) but looks like 7.62x39mm (ie AK-47) rounds... never seen Thai police carry around that caliber but perhaps, still looks like some outside the military hardware was on scene. Protester also show the camera man some deformed 5.56 rounds which may have impacted nearby, no telling where they came from but judging from the blown off heads at UUD facebook site, military or somebody was putting live rounds down range on the reds.

Judgement: Gen. Prayuth sent his men into a predictable situation (ie reds, or elements within the reds, were looking for a game changing confrontation) armed with plexi-glass riot shields and some half ass riot gear which might suffice for stunt men in a Tony Jaa flick but are hardly capable of stopping 40mm HE rounds let alone high velocity assault rifle rounds; nothing substitutes for Kevlar and a SAPI plate, I know they have that in armory having done Cobra Gold before. According to BP elements in the brass were "highly emotional", brass sent the boys in at the wrong time with the wrong gear and the men paid the price. Hopefully Prayuth never takes over for Anupong... he is a loose cannon and a hot head with little tactical or strategic sense.

The whole situation has no black or white,just a swath of grey... ultimately though Abhasit et al are further way from the ideal of democracy, what ever you think of the red shirts and their narcissistic patron, they are right in that democracy has long been undermined in T~land by the Bkk elites who are more than happy to fight for spoils among themselves but less eager to share the pie with millions of hungry mouths up country, That debate is too long for tonight, just my $.02 x 50

[bumper]

Wonder what international standards they are using I have never seen anything like it. Until the lead flew it was shoving match, that the Army kept losing.

Where in international standards does it say to fire live ammo over the heads of the protesters, that is simply nuts. Those rounds will land somewhere and nobody knows where.

Lets see lets take our troops weigh them down with heavy hot equipment wait a month after they have been standing in the sun and then order them in, Take away the fire arms they wouldn't have removed the protesters anyway. They were exhausted to start with.

Yep at least two grenade attacks a night for a month and no preperation for armed participants. They must have sniper team in Thailand where were they? The guys wouldn't have been hard to identify they were the ones with the black ski masks. Didn't they do any intelligence work before hand. Shouldn't have been that hard after all ever seen a place where people act out heir crimes for the news cameras. The had to know.

You can tell its politicians calling this.

Sad but, no surprise and I don't think it's over yet.

[TJ]

I'm confused about why this is happening. What I think I read is that this is happening because the Reds want to be allowed to appoint their man to the position of Prime Minister and maybe many more as MPs so they control the Thai Parliment. Maybe stack the courts too?

What is the purpose of these violent demonstrations? Do they want money, billions in free loans or graft? Are there socialist hand outs that they want? Or is it just class hatred between have and have-nots similar to that fomented by politicians and socialist reformers in the U.S. and other nations?

[bumper]

Best I can tell the class thing has went on for as long as Thailand has existed. It' about power and who gets it.

[jackspratt]

On an intellectual level, I suspect the understanding on UM is (generally) at about the same level as your average red shirt.

On the other hand, at the emotional level, the Sae Deang clearly have a far greater stake.

Whilst I (hopefully) understand, and support their aspirations, I have some doubts about their methods. The leadership is clearly amoral and dodgy, and while they are happy to include Thaksin in the bigger picture their (leadership) credibility is questionable.

At the end of the day, however, the pieces will not fall into place until after the big, inevitable event at the top of the family tree occurs.

But even here, perhaps there is hope. This is a very interesting, and ground breaking read:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Mini ... 55955.html

[izzix]

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exc ... tage-payen...

A FRANCE 24 team were reporting from the thick of the fighting on
Saturday night when the Thai army launched its crackdown on the anti
government “Red Shirts” protesters.

Our exclusive footage contradicts the Thai government’s declaration
that soldiers only fired live rounds “into the air”. At least 20
people were killed and 800 wounded in the violence.

Coverage from Bangkok
Behind the scenes of FRANCE 24's exclusive report on the Thai
protests.
Edit
At 1’25 in the FRANCE 24 video above, Thai soldiers can be seen firing
their automatic riffles directly at the protesters.

“We visited different hospitals Sunday morning and we’ve seen several
victims with bullet wounds in the head (…) It’s really hard to believe
the official declaration that mentions only rubber bullets and troops
firing into the air”, says Cyril Payen, FRANCE 24’s correspondent in
Bangkok, who was at the scene of the fighting on Saturday night.

According to our team, the clash was triggered by the explosion of a
grenade, the origin of which remains unknown.

“The explosion killed seven soldiers and wounded a colonel of the
Thai security forces in his head”, says FRANCE 24’s Payen.

Edit
While the victims of the explosion were being taken to the nearest
hospital, the army retaliated by firing into the crowd, plunging
Bangkok into chaos.

These deadly clashes come after almost a month of mass-demonstrations
by the “Red Shirts”, who are calling for early elections and consider
Abhisit Vejjajiva, head of government since December 2008, as totally
illegitimate.

[izzix]

[quote="TJ"]I'm confused about why this is happening. What I think I read is that this is happening because the Reds want to be allowed to appoint their man to the position of Prime Minister and maybe many more as MPs so they control the Thai Parliment. Maybe stack the courts too?

What is the purpose of these violent demonstrations? Do they want money, billions in free loans or graft? Are there socialist hand outs that they want? Or is it just class hatred between have and have-nots similar to that fomented by politicians and socialist reformers in the U.S. and other nations?[/quote]


its all very easy to understand ,its like a worm in their heads 24/7

their boy Thaksin was cheated out of his tenure and thrown out by the corrupt elite with the aid of the yellow shirts .
the yellows managed to get away without any arrest and sentencing ,although they claim they will be brought to justice.
when that day arrives you'll be old and grey .
Now there is a belief of a glaring double standard which allows yellows to get off scot free with the aid of the elite and their boy Thaksin persecuted .
result =angry Reds festering resentment for years to come .
reds and yellows at loggerheads for years to come .

[Texpat]

If you know anything about the Thai monarchy, you understand they don't care for a democratic system, they don't care for free elections and they think a constitution is completely unnecessary. It's well documented.

Many citizens who have had a brief taste of democracy, want it back. And many are willing to give their lives for it. I respect those people.

[jackspratt]

Did you overlook the follow-up report from France24, izzie?

http://www.france24.com/en/20100412-beh ... ive-report

Thank you for providing supporting evidence for the initial sentence in my previous post. =D>

Although these days I guess it is a stretch to regard you as an UM poster.

[jackspratt]

If you know anything about the Thai monarchy, you understand they don't care for a democratic system, they don't care for free elections and they think a constitution is completely unnecessary. It's well documented.

Many citizens who have had a brief taste of democracy, want it back. And many are willing to give their lives for it. I respect those people.

Whilst I agree with you Tex, this has been the position (on and off since 1932), and more so since the strange events of 1946.

However, I am not sure our discourse on this subject can survive for too much longer.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Texpat and Jack I think if you look at events around 1973 and 1992 (dates may be incorrect), you will see that the higher authority stepped in to support democracy and remove military/corrupt governments.

[maaka]

can a country with a Class system or structure, have true democracy ?