Wikileaks

[DermotC]

I tried to discuss wiki Kohndahm and you never responded to what I said about it and went off on your rant. You are beligerant and refuse to listen to reason so good luck to you. It must be hard to carry around that huge chip on your shoulder!

P.S. Ill do a search on the Internet for you to see if there are any fascist countries looking for a new leader!

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Once the press got hold of the leaked material in the U.S. (New York Times, Washington Post), did they not publish some, if not all of the, material?

Yes, they did. However, the frustration is three-fold (at least):

1. That the government intentionally lied about so many events
2. That had the Press been more robust in FINDING the truth rather than simply publicize the lies being fed to them, we would have known much of this previously when knowing could have made a difference in public opinion and the way we reacted or proceeded
3. That when reports do shine light on lies, they are intentionally buried, dismissed, or killed or the reporters are attacked, smeared, or otherwise beaten into obscurity so that the report is not given the weight and publicity it deserves

Currently, these organizations are essentially turning in late homework that was obtained from a classmate who did all the real research.

Hold the phone. I thought the information was leaked to Wikileaks by a government/military insider. I am not sure how much original research was done by that organisation Wikileaks. It seems they plagiarised information that had been researched, studied and recorded by diplomats and so on. You may have a point if you can demonstrate reasonably well that if the New York Times, the Guardian, or the London Times had been handed the information, they would not have published it or they would have censured the more sensitive information.

[snowball]

"Plagiarized"?? How is that, I thought the information was available in raw form and attributed to the source?

[snowball]

The majority of Americans thought slavery was perfectly justified, along with most of the founding fathers. Was slavery morally right? Funny thing, when the slaves were freed some decided to stay with their "masters"... the brainwashing had been so complete. As is the case in America (and elsewhere) now, where people grow up constantly fed dogma.

Show me the correlation between lower top marginal tax rates and GDP growth? There is none. If you look at the last 10 or 20 years it might even be negatively correlated. Perhaps 100 years ago, when capital could not be shipped to China at the press of a button. The point being, that Americans listen to this rhetoric and believe it... WITH NO EVIDENCE!

Wikileaks is required, because the 4th estate is dead and buried. Perhaps people will start to wake up to the fact that most of what they watch on TV is carefully designed to continue with business as usual.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Well, yes and no. Wikileaks may have provided the quotation marks along with the name of the source; however, the people who did the homework are not members of Wikileaks. If this 'homework' had been provided to major newspapers such as the New York Times, Washington Post and the Guardian, and then rejected or watered-down I could agree with KhonDahm. From my understanding, Wikileaks got this information from a military insider and not from their own researchers; furthermore, I do know of any news outlets in Canada that, 'intentionally buried, dismissed, or killed...' the information provided by Wikileaks. Did this happen in the U.S.A.? I gather it did happen in China and other parts of Asia.

[KHONDAHM]

Gentlemen, you are getting hung up on a metaphor. Perhaps it was an imperfect metaphor, but it certainly was not intended to be a literal metaphor of Wikileaks' effort. The intent was to conjure up a vision of lazy kids who waited for the kid who came along with the answers. At which time they suddenly decide to do their homework.

Of what was in that post, to get hung up on that should be telling. The meat of that post were the frustrations listed which, it seems, were ignored by most of you who have posted commentary about that post. It is another example of how consumers of information tend to miss the point and focus on the non-news and blow that up to eclipse the real discussion. Reread the posts and it should be clear.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Really...interesting...but of course...whatever.

Try re-reading what you have written in its entirety. Maybe the problem of communication ('what we have here is a failure in communication') somewhat lies with the deliverer of the message rather than wholly with the reader of the message.

[snowball]

Plagiarize - to appropriate without due acknowledgement (the ideas or expressions of another).

[parrot]

Khondahm wrote:
"the Board may have observed a more aggressive tone in my posts since the 2010 elections."

I leave a few tidbits of your ranting below to prove your point. Prior to the 2010 elections, while I didn't agree with all you wrote, at least I could stand reading your prose. Today? Forget it, you're as bad as Rush, Beck, Hannity, Sarah, and the rest of the ranting commentators who only see their side as correct. On the TV, there's a simple way to fix the problem.......on/off switch. On the forum, you'll get the same treatment that texpat gets when he goes into a rant. People will ignore you.

A sampling:

"I define dopey Americans as Republicans who subscribe to the Right Wignut rhetoric and those who are apathetic or have been shouted or scared into silence or conformity by those same Right Wignuts.

I would be happy to slap you about with facts.

After all that the Republicans have done to destroy America - both blatantly and surreptitiously -

you make my "dopey" and "ignorant" American point

you are in your own little world

In this sense, America is effectively no different than China, N Korea, and the former USSR.

Americans were being (and still are) fed propaganda and ethnocentristic coverage while the rest of the world has the benefit of external analysis and presentation to consider.

YOU are the problem

by attempting to make your point proves the ignorant American point of my prior post and makes the case of my recent and continuing dopey American comments made in other threads.

will beat the head in of any Right Wignut with facts (in their proper context) andnot be polite about it

I am fckn tired of them ruining my country."

Where's my remote?

[cookie]

WikiLeaks's Assange walks free on bail in London

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http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL3E6 ... geNumber=2

A defiant Assange had told reporters in central London the diplomatic cables showed U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had instructed U.S. ambassadors around the world "to engage in espionage behavior."

This seemed to be "representative of a gradual shift to a lack of rule of law in U.S. institutions that needs to be exposed and that we have been exposing," he said.

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we should all applaud the exposure of a lack of rule of law.

[jackspratt]

Here is the view of the Australian police on Wikileaks' (and by implication, Assange's) activities:

WikiLeaks breaks no Australian laws

The Australian Federal Police (AFP) say they have not found any breaches of Australian law by Julian Assange's WikiLeaks organisation.

Attorney-General Robert McClelland says that based on the information to date, the AFP has not identified any criminal offences where Australia has jurisdiction, and has not started an investigation..............

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... ion=justin

Coming from a country (Oz) which has also had embarrassing leaks revealed by WL, it contrasts interestingly with the comments and foreshadowed actions from another country which I believe has no better a legal system, and possibly worse, than Oz.

[BobHelm]

Here is an interesting piece reported by the Beeb showing that the USA may well struggle in making any charges that would stick to Assange. If they did actually manage to b inventive enough to create charges then it also looks doubtful that they could get him to America to prosecute.

Wikileaks: Barriers to possible US Assange prosecution

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11952817

[cookie]

Here is the view of the Australian police on Wikileaks' (and by implication, Assange's) activities:

WikiLeaks breaks no Australian laws

The Australian Federal Police (AFP) say they have not found any breaches of Australian law by Julian Assange's WikiLeaks organisation.

Attorney-General Robert McClelland says that based on the information to date, the AFP has not identified any criminal offences where Australia has jurisdiction, and has not started an investigation..............

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... ion=justin

Coming from a country (Oz) which has also had embarrassing leaks revealed by WL, it contrasts interestingly with the comments and foreshadowed actions from another country which I believe has no better a legal system, and possibly worse, than Oz.

1)
heck,
even the US Vice President said that there was no substantial damage, just "embarrassment"

"I don't think there is any substantive damage, no," Biden said, when asked about the WikiLeaks revelations.

"Some of the cables that are coming out here and around the world are embarrassing," Biden said.

2)
The chairman of the House judiciary committee defended Wikileaks on Thursday, arguing that the controversial actions of the anti-secrecy outlet are protected under free speech.

"As an initial matter, there is no doubt that WikiLeaks is very unpopular right now. Many feel that the WikiLeaks publication was offensive," Conyers said, according to prepared remarks. "But being unpopular is not a crime, and publishing offensive information is not either. And the repeated calls from politicians, journalists, and other so-called experts crying out for criminal prosecutions or other extreme measures make me very uncomfortable."

3) a majority of the US public (68 % !!!!!) deems the leak of diplomatic cables harmful to public interest and supports legal action against Assange, according to an ABC News-Washington Post poll

even though Wikileaks did not commit any crime.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01650.html

the land of the free:

Poll: Americans say WikiLeaks harmed public interest; most want Assange arrested

"But let us not be hasty, and let us not legislate in a climate of fear or prejudice," Conyers closed, referring to the calls for new laws criminalizing the actions of Wikileaks. "For, in such an atmosphere, it is our constitutional freedoms and our cherished civil rights that are the first to be sacrificed in the false service of our national security."

[KHONDAHM]

For those of you who refuse to accept reality or my "rantings", here it is in the form of a non-partisan academic study:

Misinformation: A Study of the US Electorate

http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/m ... 19308.html

Yet another reason why a Wikileaks must exist. =D>

[KHONDAHM]

Scooter Libby hired by WikiLeaks

In an effort to protect itself from attacks by American conservatives, the media website WikiLeaks announced Friday that I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby has been hired as a consultant and spokesman for the organization.

Julian Assange, WikiLeaks editor, said via Skype from an unknown location that Libby would primarily serve as a communications consultant and spokesman in the U.S., which he hoped would placate those on the American right.

“Scooter Libby revealed classified information and put a covert CIA operative at risk as part of a political attack, yet Republicans rallied to his cause. He even got a ‘get out of jail free card’ from President Bush,” Assange said. “I can’t think of anyone better suited to represent our organization, which also reveals classified information. Since American conservatives don’t have a problem with one of their own breaking the law, perhaps Mr. Libby can help shield us from some of these attacks.”

Touche! That is too funny. =D>

Full article: http://www.thechicagodope.com/2010/12/0 ... wikileaks/

[Texpat]

Why is Assmange hiding?

Shouldn't everyone have the right to know where he is?

[cookie]

Why is Assmange hiding?

Shouldn't everyone have the right to know where he is?

perhaps time to stop whining and do some searching instead:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/12/ ... 5594.shtml

Assange was granted a conditional release on 200,000 pounds ($316,000) bail Tuesday, but prosecutors sought to keep him behind bars, arguing there was a risk he would flee.

Ouseley made some amendments to the bail conditions. Assange must wear an electronic tag, report to police every day and observe a curfew. He also must stay at a registered address - a 10-bedroom mansion in eastern England owned by Vaughan Smith, a WikiLeaks supporter and founder of London's Frontline Club for journalists.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162- ... 03543.html

Assange will be staying with Smith on his 650-acre estate in a Georgian Mansion, called Ellingham Hall.

[cookie]

only for those that want to know what we talk about:

great documentary about wikileaks:

"A democracy without transparency, is no democracy at all."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMPsXx8muCY

and a great article:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010 ... ntPage=all


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and here you have the latest wikileaks cables:

http://www.leakfeed.com/#

[snowball]

Khondahm,
Fact, America is still the greatest country on the face of the planet and God help us

Just curious as to where the evidence is for this statement?

Gallup Well-Being index http://www.gallup.com/poll/102259/denma ... being.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Global Prosperity Index http://www.samoanews.com/viewstory.php?storyid=20161
Economic freedom Index http://www.heritage.org/index/
World Democracy Ranking http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm
World Liberty Project http://www.stateofworldliberty.org/report/rankings.html

The USA doesn't rank 1st on any of those index measures. I don't know if there is some website that has aggregated all these but my guess would be some Scandinavian country would come out as the "greatest" country on Earth... well, unless military might is the prime gauge you are using.

I doubt if anybody on this site is "anti-American" just fed up with dogma spat out as truth. Saddened to see the majority of Americans losing economic and political freedom.

[DermotC]

Well maybe I should have said that they are still the number one superpower and my reason for supporting them you left out on your quote.

Having said that I dont see people from all over the world wanting to go to Scandinavia!