Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

[WBU ALUM]

Personal Opinions Exempted of course

True that, Aardy.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it doesn't matter. In America, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

[WBU ALUM]

Greenwald: Obama Targeting Snowden to Intimidate Whistleblowers
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013 ... tleblowers

What the Obama administration wants…is to make it so that everybody is petrified of coming forward with information about what our political officials are doing in the dark that is deceitful, illegal or corrupt. They don’t care about Edward Snowden at this point. He can no longer do anything that he hasn’t already done. What they care about is making an extremely negative example out of him to intimidate future whistle blowers from coming forward because they’ll think they’re going to end up like him. That’s their objective.

In America, intimidation by Big Government is TYRANNY. There's no other way to cut it with the borders of the USA. It may be acceptable in other countries to people willing to get in the slavery line, but it is not acceptable in America yet. The Left as well as the Right is pushing back, and the Left is at a crossroads because so many Ozombies worship the lies that Obama tells.

Greenwald promised more leaks would be forthcoming, "I will say that there are vast programs of both domestic and international spying that the world will be shocked to learn about, that the NSA is engaged in with no democratic accountability."

Yeah, and Greenwald quoted that dead and gone Founding Father, Thomas Jefferson.

[Khun Paul]

Does anyone really care what the NSA, CIA or een the FBI are doing in America, for one I don't, it never has nor will it impinge on my life one iota, it is only a knee jerk reaction by some Americans to the fact that tjhey have just woken up to what their country is doing. When the rest of the world probably knew and don't care.
America is a great country albeit a bit young but a great country.
Shame there aresome who try to force their domestic problems onto us all.
Live and let live I say, after being called a downtrodden , gutless Englishman happily being spied on, talked about etc:- Ya boo I say up yours to!!

[Bandung_Dero]

Snowden doesn't look to be a Hero in many countries eyes, can't find anywhere to hide or at least get there!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-02/s ... ia/4795128

[WBU ALUM]

Snowden doesn't look to be a Hero in many countries eyes, can't find anywhere to hide or at least get there!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-02/s ... ia/4795128

It becomes pretty tough to remain mobile when your passport has been revoked. Snowden is literally the "Man Without a Country." Same would be true of any American who decides to renounce their citizenship and loses their passport without having citizenship somewhere else.

[bumper]

You know the guy took an oath when he signed up. Hell he knew what kind of operation it was when he applied If he couldn't handle what he saw he should have quit and kept is mouth shut I don't know an Oath means something to me.

I have to wonder how many peoples lives he has put in danger?

Maybe none I really don't know.

[WBU ALUM]

You know the guy took an oath when he signed up. Hell he knew what kind of operation it was when he applied If he couldn't handle what he saw he should have quit and kept is mouth shut I don't know an Oath means something to me.

I have to wonder how many peoples lives he has put in danger?

Maybe none I really don't know.

What about the oath his bosses took -- to protect and defend the Constitution? Shouldn't they be held accountable? There are no easy answers here except that one wrong-doing may have led to an action that others perceive as being wrong.

[jackspratt]

Will this little bit of chicanery backfire on the US - putting a number of Latin American countries offside?

Bolivia angered as president's plane diverted over suspicions Edward Snowden was on board

Edward Snowden's struggle to find a safe haven has sparked a diplomatic row, after the Bolivian president's plane was diverted to Vienna over suspicions the US fugitive might be on board.

The incident happened hours after president Evo Morales said his country would consider a request for political asylum if Snowden submitted one.

The Bolivian plane had been taking Mr Morales home from Moscow, where Snowden has been holed up in an airport transit since June 23, seeking to avoid US espionage charges for revealing a vast surveillance program.

While in flight, the pilot learned Portugal had refused to allow the plane to land for refuelling.

"I am not a delinquent. This is not a provocation against Evo Morales but against Bolivia and all of Latin America.
Evo Morales

France, Italy and Spain then banned the plane from entering its airspace, forcing it to land in Vienna.

There, police searched the plane and found no sign of the US fugitive, and the European countries reauthorised the use of their airspace...........

............. Latin American leaders outraged

The diversion has also sparked anger from other Latin American leaders, with Argentine president Cristina Kirchner calling the incident "very humiliating".

In a series of tweets on her official account, the president said, "they are definitely all crazy. The head of state and his plane have total immunity."

Ms Kirchner said she had spoken to Uruguayan president Jose Mujica, who was equally outraged.

Organisation of American States chief Jose Miguel Insulza also demanded an explanation about the incident, which he said endangered the president's life.

"Nothing justifies such a disrespectful act toward a country's highest authority," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-03/b ... ns/4798248

//Mod Note: Thread cleaned up (a bit). The topic is Edward Snowden.//

[bumper]

You know the guy took an oath when he signed up. Hell he knew what kind of operation it was when he applied If he couldn't handle what he saw he should have quit and kept is mouth shut I don't know an Oath means something to me.

I have to wonder how many peoples lives he has put in danger?

Maybe none I really don't know.

What about the oath his bosses took -- to protect and defend the Constitution? Shouldn't they be held accountable? There are no easy answers here except that one wrong-doing may have led to an action that others perceive as being wrong.

See he had a clear choice he wasn't forced to take the job. Which part of the Constitution do you think is being violated. The right to unreasonable search and seizure. As a cop I could have searched without probable cause. Wouldn't mean a thing unless I arrested you and then the courts would decide if I was right or not. You could then file suit against me in a civil action as well.

Was it unreasonable to intercept Bin Ladens e-mails phone calls. More then likely yes. But, that being said was it worth it. In my mind darn right it was.

Before Snowden came along did anyone think that your e-mails were not monitored?

I have known about it for years. I don't care I have nothing to hide. What is talking about is a very grey area. Even as that document was written we had spy's and so did the British. Nothing new really, except we have this thing called the internet today. Information travels faster then we can think. So what did Snowden accomplish?

What did he compromise, within not only the U.S. intelligence area. But, many other countries as well.

Even when you go into the Military you take an oath to protect your country from enemies both foreign and domestic.

Sorry he is a traitor and a damn stupid one at that.

Latin America might want to ask Ollie North about that. This is nothing new.

[Techland]

Prime example of 'shoot the messenger'. One can't be more wrong than you are. Mr. Snowden is not reponsible for all the ---- happening. Our governments are, and they loose face more and more every day even with him sitting around doing nothing.

[bumper]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I respect your thoughts. The entire point is there should not have been any messenger. Lets see you take a job with a spy entity and then you don't like the fact that they are spying.

Have you noticed only a few Countries seem to be upset by this. That is because they have their own operations going.

I was once offered a Job at New Embassy's being built around the world. I was to watch cement being poured to watch for bugs being installed.

Frankly he is a fool that has ruined his life, for nothing. How many times have the U.S. and China talked about this very tactic. Both countries do and both countries already knew.

There is a difference between a whistle blower who goes through channels that exist and some guy who goes straight to the media as far as I can tell.

We may not like the game but it is played the way it is played

Now if you don't work for the CIA or the NSA and you uncover it then your a hero. But, that wasn't the case. Just how trust worthy this guy is doesn't seem able to keep his word. I don't know his motivation, maybe it was to be hero I don't know. I do know one thing he took a job that required secrecy and failed he failed at his task.

Anyway that is what I think and as Forrest would say that is all have to say about that.

[WBU ALUM]

See he had a clear choice he wasn't forced to take the job.

Yep. That's not the issue.

Which part of the Constitution do you think is being violated. The right to unreasonable search and seizure. As a cop I could have searched without probable cause. Wouldn't mean a thing unless I arrested you and then the courts would decide if I was right or not. You could then file suit against me in a civil action as well.

All of that is true, but the People elect government officials with the idea that they will govern with virtue. They don't elect officials with the idea that they can do anything they wish. Whether used in court or not, the trust of the American People was violated.

Was it unreasonable to intercept Bin Ladens e-mails phone calls. More then likely yes. But, that being said was it worth it. In my mind darn right it was.

You know this isn't the same thing. Bin Laden declared war on the US.

Before Snowden came along did anyone think that your e-mails were not monitored?

That's not the issue either. It is wrong whether known or not.

Even when you go into the Military you take an oath to protect your country from enemies both foreign and domestic.

Yes, I know, and I did.

Sorry he is a traitor and a damn stupid one at that.

You're entitled to your opinion. I don't have one either way at this point. Said that early on. Only asked a question about the accountability of his bosses.

Latin America might want to ask Ollie North about that. This is nothing new.

That's the same argument Ozombies use to justify Obama's lies: "All politicians lie." That still doesn't make it right.

[Jello]

Which part of the Constitution do you think is being violated. The right to unreasonable search and seizure. As a cop I could have searched without probable cause. Wouldn't mean a thing unless I arrested you and then the courts would decide if I was right or not. You could then file suit against me in a civil action as well.

Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The ACLU has filed a civil suit against the NSA.
http://www.progressive.org/aclu-suit-against-nsa

I have nothing to hide either, but that doesn't mean I want someone looking up my ass all the time. Big brothers getting to big for his britches. It's time someone reeled him in a bit. Spy on terrorists, not me.

I don't think Ed's a hero, and I don't understand why he put himself in his current situation. The info he leaked was already out there. I also think the media is giving this story more attention than it deserves.
Could it be we're being distracted from some other current events?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-0 ... ur-freedom

[Aardvark]

I think the biggest problem here was Snowdens get away plan, the silly ***** never had one

[parrot]

Preppers, prepare your bomb shelters:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/mo ... l.html?hpw

[jackspratt]

Preppers, prepare your bomb shelters:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/mo ... l.html?hpw

Bloody scarey.

If all these snooping programs were kept separate, and used for law enforcement only in isolation, I wouldn't be so concerned.

But they are not!

A (snooping program) talks to B, who talks to C ........... and they all talk to each other, and someone collates the information.

Soon they know what library books you read, what TV programs you watch, what videos you get from Blockbuster, what groceries you buy if you use a credit card, who you call and email, your inside trouser measurement........... etc etc etc.

Fukc them* ............ I want some privacy in my life. The fact that I have done nothing wrong should be my decision, not this overwhelming presence which makes the decisions on what is right or wrong for me.

Fukc them again.

* "them" being the snoopy, unconstrained and often illegal secret services pricks from all over the world.

More power to Snowden, Assange, Manning and their ilk. =D>

[Jello]

To those who see Ed as a traitor, consider this:

Who Were the Patriots and Traitors in Nazi Germany?
by Jacob G. Hornberger June 12, 2013
Ever since I was a kid, I have heard Americans ask, “How could the German people have allowed the Nazi regime to commit its evil acts?”

Well, here’s the answer to that question: The German people had the same warped and distorted concept of patriotism that American statists have today.

The overwhelming majority of German citizens believed that it was their moral duty to come to the unconditional support of their government in time of crisis, especially when the nation went to war. The good citizen didn’t question whether his government was right or wrong. The good citizen placed his trust in the judgment and decisions of his government officials, especially during crisis and war.

That’s what patriotism meant to the German people during the 1930s and 1940s. The good citizen — the one who deferred to authority — was considered the patriot.

What about German citizens who refused to defer to authority, those who had an independent mindset — those who would examine government policies with a critical eye — those who would question, challenge, and object to wrongful government policies? They were considered bad citizens — traitors.

Article continues at http://fff.org/2013/06/12/who-were-the- ... i-germany/

[trubrit]

In a less dramatic way you could extend that about Germany to current day Britain. We have had those with foresight like Enoch Powell and his supporters who warned of the likely effects of mass immigration, branded as racist, whilst the labour government encouraged it . Even today, we are not only suffering from that policy still, but normal citizens , with no agenda, either polictical or racist are frightened to give voice to those fears .We have even been given a title for our concerns, non PC.Yes, Big Brother has truly arrived every where . :-" Like many on here I swore an allegiance to my Queen and country in military service, but I also fought for it's freedom from tyranny. In todays world they are not compatible, something has to give.

[trubrit]

Maybe I should clarify my last paragraph. When the state to which you have sworn allegiance becomes the tyrant oppressor ..

[pienmash]

An accurate comment TB , at the time i recall my parents talking about how Mr Powell was 'talking sense" but the powers that be failed to listen and or heed his warnings ref mass immigration ,,,,, precisely the reason is in such a desperate state with reference to hoards of migrants coming from all over the world and settling there ,, in turn become home grown haters of the British whilst raping the benifits system ...... IF ONLY the UK had adopted similar immigration policies the like we see here in Thailand .....hoe things would be different .

I may be wrong

Back to me Snowden ,,, im wondering if he is actually still in transit at the Moscow airport ,, and if so what are his digs like ?

mash