Another Country Grounds The 737-MAX

[sometimewoodworker]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QytfYyHmxtc[/youtube]

Interesting programme on the MAX. Scary stuff.

There are a couple of times in that program where (in all probability due to editing) the way the MCAS system works is missing information making it appear a bit more dangerous. Even so it it gives a generally accurate view of the crashes.

Can the Max be made into a safe aircraft? Almost certainly yes.
Will anyone trust that it is safe?
Will anyone who has an understanding, or not, of what happened ever believe it is safe enough?

You have to make your own decisions. I will certainly not fly in one. I will not buy a ticket from an airline that has them in service on the route I will fly. I will probably not even fly with that airline as they may make a substitution. I have never bothered to find out details of the plane I fly in, I will now.

It is possible that I may have flown in one as I did fly on 4 legs, 2 to London and 2 back, with Ethiopian airlines early in 2017. I don't know and probably can't find out now. They are a good airline though Addis Abba is not a great airport.

[Zidane]

I think everybody should watch this excellent video as it explains what maybe the layman wouldnt understand.
What Boeing did was unbelievable.As well as facing huge payouts surely some of their staff members should be facing serious jail time.
Why did they do it ? They were a reputable company before.
The plane may well make a comeback but will anyone really believe it is truly safe ?
I certainly wouldnt fly in one of these aircraft in the future.

[tamada]

I think today's word is besmirched.

be·smirch
/bəˈsmərCH/
verb
past tense: besmirched; past participle: besmirched

damage the reputation of (someone or something) in the opinion of others.
"he had besmirched the good name of his family"
synonyms: sully, tarnish, blacken, drag through the mud/mire, stain, taint, smear, befoul, soil, contaminate, pollute, disgrace, dishonor, bring discredit to, stigmatize, injure, damage, debase, spoil, ruin;

[sometimewoodworker]

I think everybody should watch this excellent video as it explains what maybe the layman wouldnt understand.
What Boeing did was unbelievable.As well as facing huge payouts surely some of their staff members should be facing serious jail time.
Why did they do it ? They were a reputable company before.
The plane may well make a comeback but will anyone really believe it is truly safe ?
I certainly wouldnt fly in one of these aircraft in the future.

They will almost certainly rebrand the aircraft to hide the fact that it's a 737MAX
They have too much invested in it to scrap it unless they are forced to and that chance is vanishingly small.

[papafarang]

I think people will be thinking it's a 50 year old design being glue gunned together with ever increasing ways of adapting a design that's over half a century old, or you could fly a modern design that flies . Airlines know phycology and they don't want planes that people think are dangerous .

[pipoz4444]

Regardless of whether Boeing fix it or not, there will still be an impression left in the mind of some of the Public who travel, that there is a risk associated with taking a flight on a 737 Max. Perception is everything and Boeing are a long way away from convincing all those who fly that the plane will be safe forever and it doesn’t really matter a lot what the so called Experts (friends of Boeing) say.

If the Airline Companies think for minute that, say 10 % of the flying Public are skeptical about flying in a 737 Max and that this will impact on their ability to sell tickets over their Competitors, then they will re-think their purchasing strategy, whether that be to buy a different Boeing plane or an Airbus.

Most Airlines are in the Plane buying business for a long life period and typically expect to get a 30 years life out of a plane for cost recovery and profitability, before they retire it. Those Airlines that hold them for shorter periods and then on-sell them, need to be sure that can find another Airline Company to purchase that second hand Plane. Smart Airline Companies will not buy, what they consider, might turn out to be a LEMON ,. i.e. Once the Public have become skeptical about flying in a 737 Max or once another Airline Company decides it does not want to buy their second hand Plane.

Those Companies that buy Planes to then Lease them out, will be the first to walk away from purchasing future Boeing 737 Max's, why, because they cant afford to have a Lease Plane sitting on the ground not earning its keep for any length of time. These Lease orientated Companies will turn straight to Airbus, if they haven't already.

It’s all about perception in the public/market place and one more incident after the so call fix, regardless of whether it be Plane or Pilot fault, will send more than a ripple through the flying Public and future tickets sales on any Boeing 737 Max. Again it’s all about Perception, not that of Boeing’,s but the perception of the Public and Airline Companies.

What is the old baseball saying “Three strike and you’re out”. Currently Boeing are 2 Strikes for No Runs, with the 737 Max [-o< [-o<

Would you buy a ticket just because it was a bit cheaper, if you thought there was chance, that it could be your last Flight? We are not talking about Drink Driving here, where you are still on the ground.

pipoz4444

[pipoz4444]

Try a simple survey on this Forum, say five questions and be honest with yourself.
People are free to add Questiosn of their own, if they wish

Q1. Will you will buy an air ticket (say the immediate future or within the next year), knowing that you will be flying on a Boeing 737 Max? Answer Yes/No

Q2. Will you will buy air tickets (in the immediate future or within the next year) for your Wife or your Children, on the basis that you are not travelling with them on that flight, but knowing they will be flying on a Boeing 737 Max? Answer Yes/No

Q3. How would you rate your perception of the "General Risk associated with flying on a a Boeing 737 Max at this time or say within the next 6 months"

Rate your Perception of Genral Risk at this time as: Unacceptable to Me or High or Medium or Low. Choose one or two or in between

Q4. What is your current perceptiion of the Risk of flying on a Boeing 737 Max compare to that of flying on an eqyuivalent size/model Airbus Plane? Choose one or two or in between

Rate your opinion as:
4a. Same Risk Factor when flying on Boeing 737 Max, compared to that when flying on Airbus equivalentt
4b. Slightly greater Risk Factor when flying on Boeing 737 Max, compared to that when flying on Airbus equivalent
4c. Above Average greater Risk Factor when flying on Boeing 737 Max, compared to that when flying on Airbus equivalent
4d. Significantly higher Risk Factor when flying on Boeing 737 Max, compared to that when flying on Airbus equivalent
4e. Totally Unacceptable to Me and much a higher/greater Risk Factor when flying on Boeing 737 Max, compared to that when flying on Airbus equivalent
4f.Less Risk Factor when flying on Boeing 737 Max, compared to that when flying on Airbus equivalent

Q5. When Boeing final annouce or claim they have fixed the problem and that the Plane is totally safe, will you believe Boeing. Rate your Belief in what Boeing say then, as a "Percentage of Belief in Boeing" as 100%, around 75%, less than 50%, less than 40% or less than 20%. Insert you our Percentage figure, if you wish

My view would be,
Q1. No
Q2. No
Q3. Unacceptable to Me and also High
Q4. 4d
Q5. Less than 40%

PS: I am over 60 and have decided not to take up "Sky Diving" as a sport

pipoz4444

[Galee]

It's not just the MAX Boeing have a problem with.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os[/youtube]

Boeing moved construction from Seattle to save money. All the time they self certify they have a question mark over their name.

[pipoz4444]

It's not just the MAX Boeing have a problem with.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os[/youtube]

Boeing moved construction from Seattle to save money. All the time they self certify they have a question mark over their name.

They lie once to the Public and Companies buying their planes, so in all probability they have and are doing it again

pipoz4444

[tamada]

There are a couple of times in that program where (in all probability due to editing) the way the MCAS system works is missing information making it appear a bit more dangerous. Even so it it gives a generally accurate view of the crashes.

Can the Max be made into a safe aircraft? Almost certainly yes.
Will anyone trust that it is safe?
Will anyone who has an understanding, or not, of what happened ever believe it is safe enough?

You have to make your own decisions. I will certainly not fly in one. I will not buy a ticket from an airline that has them in service on the route I will fly. I will probably not even fly with that airline as they may make a substitution. I have never bothered to find out details of the plane I fly in, I will now.

It is possible that I may have flown in one as I did fly on 4 legs, 2 to London and 2 back, with Ethiopian airlines early in 2017. I don't know and probably can't find out now. They are a good airline though Addis Abba is not a great airport.

AFAIK, their fleet of MAX's was only 4 (-1) and all quite recent deliveries. It looks like they do have 26 other -700 and -800's.

Their BKK-ADD is served by the 787 Dreamliner and I think they used A350's on their ADD-LHR flights around the time you went.

The old airport suffered from the usual 10 lbs of ---- in a 5 lb bag syndrome when shoehorning rapid expansion and booming pax numbers into a limited space. They opened a brand new airport last January, I read it's the largest on the continent.

I am with you on finding alternatives to using a MAX if available. I have flown on several really old 737's in Latin America. After getting one with no logo's, a flat white paint job, dark blue rudder and a curious mixture of grubby seat coverings inside, I looked up the registration. Over 20 years it had been with US Air, Alaskan, Copa and then a spell parked in a desert with a leasing company before TACA Perú operated it. I was younger then and found it more amusing that such an old bus was still working. I'm a bit more reticent these days.

[sometimewoodworker]

A counter point to the Australian video from about 12:44

[RLTrader]

Boeing 737 MAX Crash Reveals A Severe Problem With Older Boeing 737 NGs

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/05/b ... .html#more

[pipoz4444]

Regardless of whether Boeing fix it or not, there will still be an impression left in the mind of some of the Public who travel, that there is a risk associated with taking a flight on a 737 Max. Perception is everything and Boeing are a long way away from convincing all those who fly that the plane will be safe forever and it doesn’t really matter a lot what the so called Experts (friends of Boeing) say.

If the Airline Companies think for minute that, say 10 % of the flying Public are skeptical about flying in a 737 Max and that this will impact on their ability to sell tickets over their Competitors, then they will re-think their purchasing strategy, whether that be to buy a different Boeing plane or an Airbus.

Most Airlines are in the Plane buying business for a long life period and typically expect to get a 30 years life out of a plane for cost recovery and profitability, before they retire it. Those Airlines that hold them for shorter periods and then on-sell them, need to be sure that can find another Airline Company to purchase that second hand Plane. Smart Airline Companies will not buy, what they consider, might turn out to be a LEMON ,. i.e. Once the Public have become skeptical about flying in a 737 Max or once another Airline Company decides it does not want to buy their second hand Plane.

Those Companies that buy Planes to then Lease them out, will be the first to walk away from purchasing future Boeing 737 Max's, why, because they cant afford to have a Lease Plane sitting on the ground not earning its keep for any length of time. These Lease orientated Companies will turn straight to Airbus, if they haven't already.

It’s all about perception in the public/market place and one more incident after the so call fix, regardless of whether it be Plane or Pilot fault, will send more than a ripple through the flying Public and future tickets sales on any Boeing 737 Max. Again it’s all about Perception, not that of Boeing’,s but the perception of the Public and Airline Companies.

What is the old baseball saying “Three strike and you’re out”. Currently Boeing are 2 Strikes for No Runs, with the 737 Max

Would you buy a ticket just because it was a bit cheaper, if you thought there was chance, that it could be your last Flight? We are not talking about Drink Driving here, where you are still on the ground.

pipoz4444

For all those who were suggesting that Boeing didn't have a real problem with the 737 Max and or that Pilot error was part of the problem, "Think Again".

Boeing are now months down the track and are now predicting that they will present to the FFA ,their proposed "Mr Fix It" (be it Software or whatever else they have stumbled across in recent months), in SEPTEMBER or possibly in OCTOBER 2019, and "if accepted by the FFA" will be Airbone again, with the 737 Max in the last Quater of 2019. Let hope the at least got the "Year" correct??

Not to mention an estmated cost to date of 3.0 Billion to their Company/Shareholders and still counting, as I understand it.

Well done, Mr Boeing Management, (pack of A..holes) who implemented a deliberate miss-information strategy at the initial start, to continually target and suggest Pilot error.

I would move to sack the whole Board of Directors & CEO at the next Shareholders Meeting, if I was a controlling major Shareholder, for their absolute incompetence/ineptitude, in the way they have handled this to date. But that is just me

pipoz4444





,

[saint]

Boeings Behavior during this incident and before , releasing an unsafe aircraft to the markets has been nothing short of obscene . The fact that their CEO earned in access of 70 million last year , and is still in a job just makes it more so .

[pipoz4444]

Boeings Behavior during this incident and before , releasing an unsafe aircraft to the markets has been nothing short of obscene . The fact that their CEO earned in access of 70 million last year , and is still in a job just makes it more so .

I am thinking of applying for his job once he gets the bullet

I only need to last 2 weeks in the job to be set for life OK maybe one month would be very nice

pipoz4444

[sometimewoodworker]

A comprehensive update on the current situation is at

[sometimewoodworker]

The recertification of the 737 MAX has further delays.

The FAA and Boeing have lost the trust of the EASA (European aviation safety) who will not just accept the certification as has been the case up to now and require that they, the EASA, certify some/all modifications and require more information form Boeing. The EASA are seriously considering requiring simulator (expensive and time consuming) training not just a 2 hour iPad course with a later MCAS simulation when the pilot is next due for a simulator update.

So while the FAA and Boeing may still have a cosy "in bed together" relationship it is quite possibly the case that even if the US recertification happens the planes will be restricted from flying to Europe and possibly other destinations.

This in my opinion makes an independent FAA certification unlikely, unless presidential pressure is used (regrettably not impossible). As this will make the whole U.S.A. certification process more suspect than it is now. The fact that the US has different requirements for pilots will not be understood.

The flying public will just see that the US is OKing a plane that others will not, and draw the conclusion that the US just wants to put a potentially unsafe aircraft back in the air because of money?

Would you get on a plane that the FAA says is now OK but the EASA will not agree, for whatever reasons?

I know my opinion is that I'm not interested in talking that risk

[parrot]

A long read https://nyti.ms/34Ro3b7 . Things to think about when the pilot looks like he just graduated from high school

[sometimewoodworker]

A long read https://nyti.ms/34Ro3b7 . Things to think about when the pilot looks like he just graduated from high school

A long read certainly, it also gives a very different picture to one that others have reported. As such with the other evidence and reports together with at least one piece of information that nobody else has given "double-speed impulses of nose-down trim".

If untrue that throws the whole article into doubt. Once you have one thing that is not supported by anyone else including Boeing, what else is incorrect or biased?

[TJ]

This comment may be interesting.

"If you’ve got some 737 pilot acquaintances, please share what they’ve said.

Believe me I have done that... repeatedly, and been shouted down repeatedly. Let me paraphrase one more time... The 737 MAX vertical stabilizer trim system was altered and this should have been passed on to pilots in a better way, but the 3rd world airlines and their inadequately trained pilots were still responsible for the crashes.

These modern airliners practically fly themselves from point a to point b. The pilots are there largely to verify the systems are working correctly and intervene on the very rare occasion when there is a malfunction. The problem with this is that pilots become so insulated from actually flying the plane that their skills and gut/butt level understanding of what it means to fly an aircraft can sometimes get rusty. In the case of 3rd world pilots they often have very low hours outside of simulators and never developed much in the way of butt level flying skills to begin with."

It may also be interesting to know that the above comment was among those alluding to the following article.

An ISIS aircraft mechanic caught trying to disable the same system that brought down two other 737s?

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... _737s.html