Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

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How do you view Snowden's actions in (further) exposing the spooks?

Hero - hopefully will find a happy home in a place with no extradition treaty with the US or ally.
58
57%
Traitor - should be strung up from the nearest tree.
28
28%
Other - can't make up my mind yet.
15
15%
 
Total votes: 101

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WBU ALUM
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by WBU ALUM » June 29, 2013, 10:39 am

Khun Paul wrote:WBU follow the Constitution , that course has cost thousands of Americans their lives. With their inalienable right to bear arms. Don't tell me about Americans god given right to expect their Govt to follow the Constitution, it is the only thing that Americans do, Cry about their constitutional rights.
The Second Amendment, the right to keep and bear arms, is what keeps Americans free and keeps tyranny at bay. It insures all the other amendments. And I am indeed telling you about Americans' expectations for their government to follow the Constitution. Maybe your countrymen should have done more to keep your individual liberty and be able to make choices for themselves. Your statements indicate to me that you're perfectly willing to get in line and do what big government tells you to do. You've even learned not to cry about it and just accept it. And now you encourage others to follow your lead into hopelessness. You want everyone to just be quiet like you and accept the oppression. No thank you. You choose the word "cry", as if Americans are children without the means to deal with it. In extreme cases, the 2nd Amendment is there for Americans to deal with it.

This is about the government doing its duty, not the misguided illegal use of firearms in America by a minority of people. There are over 300 million people in America. Best estimates are that about 45% or 52 million of American households own 260 million guns. Those numbers keep America free -- although that freedom is declining.s
Sure membership of Computorised clubs aka facebook /Twitter is voluntary , I am not that stupid, but following on from your voluntary membership goes a massive amount of privacy issues which if i remember rightly is against the American Constitution as well.
Did you know that all of those "privacy issues" are addressed by Facebook and that those who participate either accept them or don't bother to read them?
But then following on from 9/11 and other acts deemed to be terrorism related on American soil, either your countrymen are happy to targeted due to the populations hampering the Govts ability to thwart these attacks or their not.
America is a nation of laws. The federal government was never given, and was never supposed to take, such intrusive power to torment LAW-ABIDING citizens. Americans expect their government to protect them, but not at the expense of Liberty, Justice and the Rule of Law.
IN the Uk there is NO soft Communism as you so politely say but there is iin the UK and elsewhere in Eurpope an acceptance that IF you wish to remain safe then a certain amount of snooping must be done as unlike 50 years ago when most p[eople knew their neighbours and life was considerably slower, these days that is NBOT the case. With the upsurge of not very nice people being tainted by religious ramblings of many re;ligions and even by the emerging countries as well spawnin g nuts in gay abandon, sorry but any Govt that ensures my safety has my vote, maybe those Americans who don't like what their Govt is doing should go to live in countries where your rights are not protected under a piece of paper written some 200 odd years ago and complain there. Shooting is their answer in many cases, stop complaining and get on with life, this is the 21st century , you WBU embrace it fully as you use the erlectronic age to spout your complaints, as do I.
Americans do not want their rights violated. If you and other Europeans agree with your own subjugation and intrusiveness of your governments, you're entitled to it, but don't come on here and tell Americans that they need to get into the slavery line with you.



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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by WBU ALUM » June 29, 2013, 10:47 am

Khun Paul wrote:. . . compromises MUST be made . . .

So although in substance I agree that snooping is an invasion of my personal privacy and peace of mind, to have that privacy or even peace of mind then generally, as I am not a law-breaker nor a person who wishes to do ill to anyone or country, the snooping is the price I must pay to allow me to live then so be it.I never said I like it , but I ACCEPT IT as part of continuing to live reasonably freely in a manner I like without some idiot telling me how to live.
I don't compromise my rights.

If you accept it, then you'll accept the next little intrusion and then the next one. You're like the frog on the slow boil in the pot of water. When the water finally gets to the point that you can't survive, it will be too late.

That's your choice, and you are certainly entitled to it. Your lectures that suggest the rest of us follow you into that boiling pot isn't very appealing. I choose not to follow.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by Khun Paul » June 29, 2013, 8:51 pm

Well if Americans do not want their rights violated , let us agree that the Us of A has no further right to tell the rest of the world what to do about anything, go back to your isolationism and live a full productive life, without pretending that you have all the answes to every countries ills and then try to install your twisted sense of democracy which as far as I can see, allows children to die through a law that allows you to kill anyone just beause you have a gun, it may be illegal but it is your God given right to bear the weapon.
What total garbage personally I'd rather live anywhere than the US of A and that includes many of my friends some of whom are American.
i do not ask anyone to follow me, just think, you WBU onviously choose not to, That is your decision.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by WBU ALUM » June 29, 2013, 9:12 pm

Khun Paul wrote:Well if Americans do not want their rights violated , let us agree that the Us of A has no further right to tell the rest of the world what to do about anything.
Don't confuse what the US government does with the comments made here by Americans. I know of no American on this forum who is interested in projecting their will on anyone else's country. None. I don't even recall ever seeing a post in that regard.

I have never witnessed any American tell someone from another country on this forum how their government should operate, who they should elect, or even cheerlead in any of their politics for any particular candidate in that other country. I can't say that about other nationalities sticking their noses in the domestic business of Americans (like our Constitution)-- and I am making a reference to you and others. They all know who they are.

You're entitled to your opinions, but you have no dog in the hunt when it comes the US Constitution -- just like WE have no dog in the hunt in your domestic laws. If you stick your nose in it, prepare to be challenged.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by gudtymchuk » June 29, 2013, 10:23 pm

WBU ALUM wrote:
Khun Paul wrote:Well if Americans do not want their rights violated , let us agree that the Us of A has no further right to tell the rest of the world what to do about anything.
Don't confuse what the US government does with the comments made here by Americans. I know of no American on this forum who is interested in projecting their will on anyone else's country. None. I don't even recall ever seeing a post in that regard.

I have never witnessed any American tell someone from another country on this forum how their government should operate, who they should elect, or even cheerlead in any of their politics for any particular candidate in that other country. I can't say that about other nationalities sticking their noses in the domestic business of Americans (like our Constitution)-- and I am making a reference to you and others. They all know who they are.

You're entitled to your opinions, but you have no dog in the hunt when it comes the US Constitution -- just like WE have no dog in the hunt in your domestic laws. If you stick your nose in it, prepare to be challenged.
+1 =D> :lol:
What happens if you get scared half to death twice?

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by Khun Paul » June 30, 2013, 8:19 am

Fine i agree the Amerian constitution was written for Americans, ,unfortunately it no longer works as well as it should.
And as for further comments about an American who does not like what his government is doing to the rest of the world,who actually cares, as Americans in my mind when it comes to their country are very judgemental , prejudicede,narrow minded and in many cases highly opinionated, but thats them. They also rely on a law written as I stated just over 200 odd years ago to run their lives in the 21st century.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by Galee » June 30, 2013, 8:39 am

WBU ALUM wrote:
Khun Paul wrote:
I have never witnessed any American tell someone from another country on this forum how their government should operate,
Remeber this WBU. A comment of yours when the soldier was killed in London recently.:-"

by WBU ALUM » May 23, 2013, 11:25 am

randerson79 wrote:To bad he didn't have a gun to protect himself.

Agree.

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Post by fatbob » June 30, 2013, 8:44 am

Galee, how can you compare cold blooded murder to a whistle blower and privacy laws, keep on track son.

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Post by Galee » June 30, 2013, 8:48 am

Your right coxo. I was just trying to point out WBU's hypocrisy.

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Post by WBU ALUM » June 30, 2013, 10:04 am

Galee wrote:
WBU ALUM wrote:
Khun Paul wrote:
I have never witnessed any American tell someone from another country on this forum how their government should operate,
Remeber this WBU. A comment of yours when the soldier was killed in London recently.:-"

by WBU ALUM » May 23, 2013, 11:25 am

randerson79 wrote:To bad he didn't have a gun to protect himself.

Agree.
Wishing someone could protect themselves from being murdered is not the same as involving myself in politics in the UK and being on here night and day bashing the British social structure and their national and domestic laws -- as so many others do regarding the United States. There are numerous examples of it.

The two aren't even close, but if that's all you've got and you're happy, congratulations.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by WBU ALUM » June 30, 2013, 10:11 am

Khun Paul wrote:as Americans in my mind when it comes to their country are very judgemental , prejudicede,narrow minded and in many cases highly opinionated, but thats them. They also rely on a law written as I stated just over 200 odd years ago to run their lives in the 21st century.
And YOU are prejudiced against Americans for thinking so. Anytime you classify a group all the same way and try to link your own stereotypes and/or isolated circumstances to them, YOU are prejudging. Pot, meet kettle.

And here you are critical again of American laws. You're a basher. You just can't quit, can you? :roll:

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by jackspratt » June 30, 2013, 10:49 am

New revelations - can only help Snowden's climb up the "Hero" ladder.

I wonder if this will open up a whole lot of new asylum possibilities for Snowden - and very much closer to Moscow. :D
US reportedly bugged EU offices, computer networks, according to Der Spiegel magazine

The United States has been accused of bugging European Union offices and accessing EU computer networks, according to secret documents cited in German magazine Der Spiegel.

The allegations are based on a "top secret" document from the National Security Agency (NSA), dated September 2010, that was allegedly stolen by fugitive Edward Snowden.

The document, which has been seen in part by Der Spiegel journalists, is said to outline how the NSA listened to conversations and phone calls by bugging EU offices.

It also details how the agency spied on internal computer networks in Washington and at the United Nations.........

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-30/u ... -r/4790080

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by FrazeeDK » June 30, 2013, 6:24 pm

aha!! as I suspected.. planned in advance... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... n_newsreel
Dave

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Post by jackspratt » June 30, 2013, 8:47 pm

This editorial (15 June) from The Economist pretty much sums up my thoughts on the Snowden issue.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/2 ... ed-consent

An excerpt:
Furthermore, governments tend to be opportunistic. After September 11th Dick Cheney, then vice-president, and his staff exploited the rules to gain important new powers that they then kept secret. Even Congress did not know of this. Today’s spooks are supposedly more closely constrained. Yet America’s system involves judges sitting in a secret court who issue secret data-collection orders which bind the recipients to secrecy. A handful of secretly briefed lawmakers oversee the process. The legal opinions that govern the process are secret, too. Attempts to cast light on this verge on the farcical: the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a lobby group, is fighting a legal battle to get the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to release a secret opinion issued in 2011, which (unusually) blocked a secret NSA programme. Perhaps the ends justify the means—we do not know—but that was not the case with extraordinary rendition, “black jails”, waterboarding and the other ventures Mr Cheney’s mob led America into.

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Post by TJ » July 1, 2013, 12:54 am

Hero. If you don't believe U.S. citizens live under a tyrannical government, thnk again. We are experiencing the same abuses that were enumerated in the Declaration of Independence amny many ore. He was leading a good life and gave it all up. Pehaps his patriotic example will inspire a few others to do the same.

We in the U.S. are living under what has been called soft totalianism. If many brave citizens do not act to expose a corrupt and dangerous state, it will only get worse.

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Post by WBU ALUM » July 1, 2013, 1:52 am

TJ wrote:Hero. If you don't believe U.S. citizens live under a tyrannical government, thnk again. We are experiencing the same abuses that were enumerated in the Declaration of Independence amny many ore. He was leading a good life and gave it all up. Pehaps his patriotic example will inspire a few others to do the same.

We in the U.S. are living under what has been called soft totalianism. If many brave citizens do not act to expose a corrupt and dangerous state, it will only get worse.
Yes, "soft tyranny" is alive and well in America.

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Post by Khun Paul » July 1, 2013, 6:03 am

I do not bash Amerian laws, just the fact that changes in some laws are dictated by the Constitution which is outdated in todays society.
Some Amecian laws are good, which ones, escape me for the moment. As for bashing Americans i don't they do that quite happily by themsleves by their money led politics and the fact that normal citizens have to put up with the vast amounts of money puishing changes or no changes depending on which law it is even police officers come under a man/woman voted in by the public.

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Post by Galee » July 1, 2013, 7:37 am

After reading this article, I've changed my mind. Hero.

New NSA leaks show how US is bugging its European allies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... ean-allies

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Post by WBU ALUM » July 1, 2013, 9:52 am

Khun Paul wrote:I do not bash Amerian laws, just the fact that changes in some laws are dictated by the Constitution which is outdated in todays society.
Some Amecian laws are good, which ones, escape me for the moment. As for bashing Americans i don't they do that quite happily by themsleves by their money led politics and the fact that normal citizens have to put up with the vast amounts of money puishing changes or no changes depending on which law it is even police officers come under a man/woman voted in by the public.
No, you're a basher.

Pretty easy to see your disdain for it all in your previous rant quoted just below. It's all negative, and all prejudicial statements on your part. Can you find any post by any American on this forum that says the same about your laws and your society???? I bet not.
as Americans in my mind when it comes to their country are very judgemental , prejudicede,narrow minded and in many cases highly opinionated, but thats them. They also rely on a law written as I stated just over 200 odd years ago to run their lives in the 21st century.
And in the same breath that you claim NOT to be a basher, you bash some more:
Some Amecian laws are good, which ones, escape me for the moment. As for bashing Americans i don't they do that quite happily by themsleves by their money led politics and the fact that normal citizens have to put up with the vast amounts of money puishing changes or no changes depending on which law it is even police officers come under a man/woman voted in by the public
You're entitled to your opinion, but it's none of your business. You're a basher. [-X

And by the way, I've asked you this before, and I never got an answer. Are you preoccupied with this 21st Century? You always seem to post that as if it is some threshold that we've all crossed and need to start thinking differently IMMEDIATELY.

We're only 13 years into the century! What the hell is supposed to happen in such dramatic fashion that we should all have to tune in to the 21st Century? Care to clue us all in?

I get the impression from you that everyone is just supposed to throw all their beliefs, values, hobbies, thoughts and current activities out the window because of your 21st Century rhetoric that pretty much says nothing. Life, society, economics, etc. all evolves. Even the Industrial Revolution didn't happen overnight, even though some historians place a circa date on it.

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Post by WhoUrDaddy » July 1, 2013, 10:14 am

Galee wrote

After reading this article, I've changed my mind. Hero.
I think many, if and when they realize what is being 'exposed', will agree with you.

Snowden put nobody in harm's way, didn't expose CIA agents, locations, compromise any military operations.

Simply told the truth, as embarrassing as it is, and should be. Also extremely illegal (but that's a whole other thread).

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