Land papers help??

[charliemike11]

Anybody know someone I can speak to for free advice about land title deeds?? A thai and english speaker is a must and preferably in udon Thani, My wife has some issues over the family owned land apparently the neighbours stole the papers years ago and they are going to get new papers made????

All sounds a load of crap to me and when I ask for clarification I'm shouted at for not understanding :-" I'm told Thai people cannot easily get Chanot or Por Bor Ta Ha or something else like a Tor tor sam (something like this ) I want to know whats going on what papers have been stolen and what NEW papers are being made a good Thai to english translation would help me sleep at night!

I have built a house on this land 5 years ago for them to live in it cost me a lot of money I am worried they will lose it all, I was told originally it was all their land and nothing to worry about now it's a different story!

Cheers
Am willing to pay if I must just to find out the Truth

[Bandung_Dero]

----, if you were conned into building a home on land you had no idea who owned that was your first BIG mistake! Your first point of call will be the village boss (Puyai Baan) as if the land was anything else but Chanoot titled (controlled at the Amphore office) he will have witnessed and have copies of any disposals and purchases of government leased land within his Moo Ban and he should know who is the legal Lessor.

[treehugger]

The Amphor Land Office can tell you who is the legal owner if it is Chanot registerd land. However, the deeds may well have been given as security for a loan (or some such - rather than stolen), in which case you won't get them back until the loan is repaid. OR, worst case, the lender calls in the papers for non-payment and gets the land and house as well. I hope that it works out but would suggest that you get a lawyer ASAP.

[charliemike11]

Its the puyai who has apperently commited fraud after stealing the papers from the father when he was blind and sick and paying some whitness to get the name on the papers changed, numerous villagers are privvy to this information and have offered support.
I was not married into this family when I built the house, I felt sorry for a poor family commited myself to helping them, The land has been in the family name for over 150 years. Now the mother is sick and we have built a house this puyai is walking around laughing at the sick mother in law (widowed) pay me 200k and i'll give you your land papers.

They went to a government office and have a letter to say not to worry this puyai can't steal land or put any financial charge on it as he doesnt actually have the right papers to steal the land. We just need to make a new paper in my mother in laws name as ownership/residence is over 65yrs proven by her tibien ban document very confusing old mother in law cannot read or write. She's an old isaan rice farmer and scared to death her new home will be taken from her.

My wife is not much better and understanding this we will come over to Udon in 3 weeks to try get to the bottom of it. This family asks nothing of me, my wife and I work and live in the UK she financially supports her mother and daughter not me.
I just want to help them I feel powerless because I don't understand, I have no real money I could use a credit card to pay for a lawyer but I'd rather not!

Think Ill buy me a paddling pool and a few cans of leo lay in the sun and wait for the family to run around and sort it all out least then when i finish the can's I can chuck em over the wall and hope they hit the puyai in the head knocking sense into him greedy SOAB!!
Glad I don't live around these people, they is bad bad bad!! don't ask me why coz the list goes on and on and on!!

[wazza]

Pay a lawyer to investigate and also resolve the issue legally, then its peace of mind for you and your extended family etc

My friend recently thought much the same, that his GF's land was hers, and even she thought , BUT it turns out the great grandfather who has died, didnt sign it over properly and all subsequent papers werent bono fidi.

Issan Lawyers sorted all this out and advised the correct procedures and he is greatful for this , no doubt with his new house on her land with a lovely little lease with no expiry date .

[charliemike11]

Thanks Jackspratt and frans for your help and advice. Frans I will call that Lady she sounds just the person to help sort this terrible mess out!!
=D>

[Frans]

Hello Charlie,

Hope you keep us informed, Becaurse we cane learn about it

Good luck to you, And the land&house

Frans.

[kopkei]

hi charliemike ,
i have been reading this and it all makes no sense ..
so normally when you have a chanot , nobody else than the owner can transfer this on an other name ( in case of sale )
this same to pawn the chanot ,( loan ) only owner can do this....
if you loose a chanot or is stolen , you go to the police , they make a report ( lost or stolen ) and with this paper you go to the land office to make a new chanot...( land office have copy's of all registrations)
so i understand in your case the owner can not read or write, still in case of any above she will have to be present , nobody else ( also not puyai baan or whom ever ) can sell, pawn or what ever this land without approval of the owner...
and if this would have happened it would all be fraud..., and you will need assistance lawyer...
so my advice would be , do not tell this puyai baan story at the land office ,ask what to do because she lost the land paper..
probably , you will need a police report , and they will make you a new chanot, and the puyai baan will not be smiling any more ,even if he would come up with the old chanot , he can not do much as he is the one who has committed fraud...
anyway this is my logic view on this ...
good luck...

[nkstan]

A Chanot title is probably not available on this land.You are not concerned about resale,so just move onto the land and let the PUUPUU Yai try to evict you with false papers.Just shine him as he has no legal rights if the transfer was not above board.Let him have the H/A,not you!

Hopefully this isn't a family plot to get money from you!

[charliemike11]

Will keep you guys informed frans,
Kopkei just mentioned your post to the wife, My mother in-law did go to the police (few months ago)Unfortunately she informed the head policeman her land papers have been stolen by the Puyai showing him a paper with her and her husbands names crossed off and the puyai's name in place of it [-o<
The policeman said to her she had no right to accuse him of stealing and such, he scared her off being a timid little old lady she walked out and the policeman laughed at her as she left the building...

She needs our help, My wife has been saving all year to pay a lawyer to sort this mess out when we come over in April,

NKstan we are indeed using a lawyer, one Frans has recommended The wifes sister came up by bus from Buriram before christmas, went to a government office in Udon Thani about this they were told not to worry just to remake these papers (NOR SOR SAM) SO they went back to this amphur office in Sangkhom and were told NO WAY to remake papers without the Puyai papers bloody mess!!

God it's frustrating thankgod for Lawyers they can get to the bottom of this, No Money required form me by the way folks not YET!! hahaha wait and watch this space..

Any ideas or comments about a plan of action would be appreciated for warned is fore armed as they say!!
Gotta buy me a peterpool I'm told it's boiling out there this time of year Songkran etc I've never been to Thailand for songkran! gotta go wife is ranting at me coz i don't understand because she don't understand because her mother don't understand This is Thailand HA !! :-"

OH yeah what is this NOR SOR SAM i'm told it is the important paper???

[kopkei]

Chanote (Title Deed)
A Chanote is a certificate for ownership of land. A person having their name shown on the deed has the legal right to the land, and can use it as evidence to confirm the right to government authorities.

The title deed has been issued by using GPS to set the area and boundaries of the land, which is a very accurate method. It is the long term goal of the Land Department that all land in Thailand will be covered under the Chanote title system. This is the most secure type of land title and is highly recommended.

Nor Sor Sam Kor (Confirmed Cerificate of Use)
This certifies that the person named on the certificate has the confirmed right to use the land, implying all requirements for the issuance of the title deed have been met and issuance of the deed is pending. They may be sold, leased, used as mortgage collateral and etc. The holder of this certificate cannot leave the land unattended for more than 12 years.

The Chanote and Nor Sor Sam Kor are the only titles over which registerable right of ownership or lease can exist and are as such the only ones that a prudent foreigner should consider.

Nor Sor Sam (Cerificate of Use)
Similar to the above Confirmed Certificate of Use except that not all of the formalities to certify the right to use have been performed. Before a transfer can be made, a notice of intent must be posted and then 30 days public notice is necessary before any change of status over the land can be registered.

Sor Kor Nung (Certificate of Possession)
This recognises that a person is in possession of land but the Certificate does not imply that there are any rights associated with the possession. It is not transferable, but a person in possession may transfer physical possession and the new possessor may apply for a new Certificate of Possession.

Ask to see a copy of the front and back of the land or condo title deed. A faithful translation of this will show you who the current owner is; if the property has any endorsements or liens; the shape, area and orientation of the property and border to a public property (such as a road, stream or the ocean).

[kopkei]

the problem is that you not mention or maybe not know what paper in former list , exactly is stolen or missing

[charliemike11]

Kopkei You really are a genius of information!! MUCH appreciated, =D>

Wife and I will know more of whats truely going on when we arrive in April, God I can see it now ranting, moaning, Tears, back and for many places with yours truely driving them to god knows where like a headless chicken! All Thanks to Lec Car rentals, again fantastic company for sooo many reasons!!

Just hope I can get them to the lawyer lady, without my having a breakdown first. Why is it when our Tee Rak is stressed, nothing we say is ever heard properly?? Funny they hear everything you say when you wisper a curse word!! :-"

Dredding the drive to the house the Puyai and all his family extended cousins loads of em all live right next door, love village life nothing like the false smiles and sarcastic laughing to make you feel welcome

Gunna be fine all of this I'm sure, We have faith and a good positive mind, hopefully a good lawyer TOO! If all else fails and it get scary there's always my ole dad down in khon kaen visiting his inlaws next month to visit while it all calms down LOL
cheers guys

[charliemike11]

Got here late last night had a great reception from all the family, Went to a Mowlam sing in Ban Pong Khong not good but did see a bit of a good one today in Ampher Phen When I took the family shopping around the market

Visiting Somphol Lawyers tomorrow my sister in law spoke to them by phone the other day they sound very professional anybody got any reviews of their services??

[JR]

Charlie, any updates on the development on this?

[Krista]

Hi,
The Amphor Land Office can tell you who is the legal owner if it is Chanot registerd land. However the deeds may well have been given as security for a loan (or some such rather than stolen) in which case you won't get them back until the loan is repaid.