Another electrocution and who cares attitude!

[Bandung_Dero]

A middle aged, hard working, good family man was electrocuted yesterday whilst servicing his rice thrashing machine. His forehead touched a live wire that had been damaged and in typical Thai style repaired with a bit of 2nd hand tape which had all but fallen off.

TW has just returned from his funeral, because of the nature of his death he was buried and to be cremated in 3 years time. A sad loss of one of the most popular men in the village for the sake of a 500 Baht ‘Safe T Switch’ (RCD).

As TW is on the committee and treasurer for the Government public works grant they get twice a year I suggested that instead of some useless fish ponds or street drainage they start a program of subsidising the installation of protection devices into each home in the village. Would have got a better response if I advised her to build a brothel in the grounds of the Wat.

What can you do?

[bluejets]

I guess you just have to keep trying. Good idea to try to get them motivated.
Safety switch definetely a must .......no reason not to have one.
If you think a few words from a lecky will help, I would be only to happy to add my two cents worth.

[Khun Paul]

Having just had an up and down argument with Egat regarding their current poor attitude to constant power-cuts, they did in fact admit that the quality of the power lines were part of the cause, and that was being addressed this year.
When it comes to household security and safety, it was their intention to highlight safety issues on a nationwide advertisment programme, However as with most things there will be NO subsidy to enable people to acquire basic safety cheaply.
it is a sad fact that Thailand still views it public as cheap commodities ( no matter what the public think) so basic safety is there if you can afford it.
perhaps a suggestion could be to talk to the local tessaban to highlight safety issues, could have some effect.
I wish you luck in your endeavours.

[tigerryan]

Unshielded wires and the lack of GFI switches in Asia this sort of accident most happen all the time. Electricity is just not a very intuitive danger. I guess you either need to be educated about it in school or just plain scared shitless about as a child.

[NOLA]

Would a "Saftey Cut" as I believe they are called, eliminate the possibility of electrocution like GFIs do???

[NOLA]

Before I get raked over the coals by the geniuses on this forum, maybe I should have said "lessen the possibility".

[Bandung_Dero]

Would a "Saftey Cut" as I believe they are called, eliminate the possibility of electrocution like GFIs do???

Call em what you like:- A 'Safety Cut' ,if want to call it that,is an RCD - Residual Current Device - It measures the difference in current flow between Active and Neutral and if the imbalance is, say, 30 milli amps trips assuming that there is a path to earth or somewhere else taking the voltage source away. An ELCB - Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker - similar to what is installed on instant hot water systems is slightly different where it can measure a current path to earth, that is why they have to have a good Earth as a reference.

I believe they are as effective as each other BUT as we all know Earthing and Thailand is an oxymoron thus RCD is the way to go.

I have not heard the term GFI so don't know what they are.

[rossi46]

Very technical by the way the reason they say safety cut is because its the best known (brand name)RCD in thailand.

Most new houses have them in the consumer units now anyway even in Thailand, siemens etc

[tigerryan]

GFI,Safety cut RCD Same Same. Most people would know it as the little button you need to push in on the electrical outlet in the bathroom when all of your wifes hair fixing apparatus breaks at the exact same time as all the lights burn out.

[fdimike]

All these devices will only work with a GOOD ground (earth). That means a metal rod at least 2-3 meters long driven into the ground. A wire from the GFI, Safety Cut etc is then attached to the rod. You will also need a wire between the electrical device and the GFI/Safety Cut. In my case I 3 wired my entire house. All electrical outlets, appliances, air con units etc are all protected.

Another thing to be checked is to make sure the polarity of the outlet is correct. Nearly all electrical outlets in Thailand are constructed with two different size openings (one wider than the other). The narrow blade opening is the positive with the wider one being negative or common.

[Funman]

[background=]
Postby fdimike » May 27, 2010, 9:46 pm
"All these devices will only work with a GOOD ground (earth). That means a metal rod at least 2-3 meters long driven into the ground. A wire from the GFI, Safety Cut etc is then attached to the rod. You will also need a wire between the electrical device and the GFI/Safety Cut. In my case I 3 wired my entire house. All electrical outlets, appliances, air con units etc are all protected.

Another thing to be checked is to make sure the polarity of the outlet is correct. Nearly all electrical outlets in Thailand are constructed with two different size openings (one wider than the other). The narrow blade opening is the positive with the wider one being negative or common".
[/background]

[b]Mike, please enlighten me on something: If AC is alternating current as I've learned long ago why is it necessary to have a polarized outlet. I can get my head around why it's a must with DC but this puzzles me.[/b]

[fdimike]

First of all let me explain that I am not an electrical engineer but I do know a fair amount about electricity.

All electrical devices have at least 2 wires going to them - 1 positive (live or hot) and 1 negative (common, neutral). Some devices may have a third or fourth wire also depending on the device. A simple light bulb may be a good way of explaining polarity. 2 wires go to the lamp socket. The positive wire goes to the center of the socket which makes contact with the center of the bulb. The second wire is attached to the theaded portion of the socket which is in contact with the theaded portiuon of the bulb. Switch on the light and all is ok. Now reverse the two wires. The positive to the threaded part and the common to the center of the socket. Switch on the lamp and all works fine again BUT touch the outer housing of the bulb socket or lamp base (if metal) or power tool and you will get a shock.
The same is true for nearly every electrical device. A polarized electrical outlet is a safety device to help prevent electrical shocks by keeping the positive wire where it belongs. Of course this is all predicated on the device being wired correctly as well.
Many power tools now come double insulated which prevents any contact between the outer case and the internal electrics to help prevent lethal shocks especially when working outside.
Local Thai workers who nearly will always bypass electrical safety devices (remove the plug and insert bare wires into an outlet) are needlessly risking their life. The same holds true about operating ungrounded electrical equipment outdoors.
The electrical code in the US is quite strict in this regard in order to prevent any more deaths/dserious injuries from electrical devices.

You can test your own electrical sockets very easily with a small ELECTRICIANS screwdriver device which also has a built in little neon light. Insert the screwdriver into the narrow opening of the socket and it should light. Insert it into the wide opening and it will not if the outlet is correctly wired. I can guarantee you with near 100% certainty That I can walk into any house here in Thailand and find most of the outlets incorrectly wired.

I hope this helps.

[UdonExpat]

We're living in a 'developing country', not a developed country. It is not up to the standards we live with in Europe and North America. If you want those standards you will have to go live where they are in place. It's up to the Thai's to determine how they want to develop their infrastructure, not us. Their point of view about what is important is informed by a lifetime of living here.

Living here comes with many more hazards than we would have in our home countries, but we choose to take the chance for what we consider a superior lifestyle.

A GFI or or Safe-T-Cut is not likely to be installed on an electrical line out in a farm field anywhere in the world. It's a tragedy that a good man lost his life.

[parrot]

"We're living in a 'developing country', not a developed country. It is not up to the standards we live with in Europe and North America. If you want those standards you will have to go live where they are in place."

Your hot water heater likely has a small sign in Thai that says "Caution. This item dangerous to your life if not grounded." Fair enough. You'd expect a person who installs it to ground it. The first two hot water heaters we encountered in rented houses downtown were not grounded. I think fdimike was trying to impart some lessons learned for those who value their lives. I'll take my "superior lifestyle" with a properly grounded electrical plug.

[fdimike]

Living in a developing country doesn't carry much weight with me as the "powers to be" here in Thailand are VERY familiar with these safety devices. Additionally. every electrician I've met is also familiar with these safety devices.

There are signs indicating ground (earth) point on nearly every electrical appliance here in Thailand to include your water pump and air con compressors. The instructions (written in Thai and English)which come with these appliances usually clearing instruct the user to ground the appliance. Even if it doesn't tell you to ground the item a little common sense will go a long way here. The Thai electrical code (there really is one) has stated for at least 5 years now that all new construction is to use 3 wire grounded electrical outlets. The Thai electric company has a large display board in their office explaining 3 wire outlets as well. Unfortunately, like most other laws here there is no enforcement so everyone just does as they like. The results of which is the subject of this thread. Watch carefully when somone is washing clothes in a washing machine because they will always remove the plug before removing the wet clothes for fear of a shock.
I strongly urge everyone reading this forum to buy one of these cheap little polarity checking electricians screwdrivers and check your outlets. An ungrounded, incorectly grounded or revversed polarity outlet is a potential major health hazard. It is especially dangerous here in Thailand because most people walk around their home barefoot.

Udon expat: I disagree with you regarding the use of these safety devices out on a farm. Quite the opposite is true with normal A/C circuits grounded wherever you are. There are also portable gfi units available which are connected to the end of a 3 wire extension cord.

The choice is obviously your to make. I chose to err on the safe side and grounded everything electrical in my house.

[udonuk1]

This is Thailand , land of "Sabai Sabai" , personally i am impressed that Thailand is much safer than i expected, but sorry to hear about the villager

[bluejets]

I strongly urge everyone reading this forum to buy one of these cheap little polarity checking electricians screwdrivers and check your outlets. An ungrounded, incorectly grounded or revversed polarity outlet is a potential major health hazard. It is especially dangerous here in Thailand because most people walk around their home barefoot.

Unlike most here, I am an electrician and I have seen these screwdriver neons that are faulty and can connect you directly to the supply. Be advised to leave electrical to those who are trained not those who might think "they know a fair bit about electricity". Polarity of the outlet Active and Neutral makes no difference. Of course the earth should be connected to the earth pin but you can be assured that a cheap little neon screwdriver definetely is not the way to check the system here. Where there is a switch controlling the outlet, the switch must be in the Active conductor.
From what I have seen in Thailand, the MEN (multiple earth neutral) does not appear to be enforced at each and every consumer as it should be for proper fault protection. Sticking an earth rod in the ground and connecting earths from outlets is a start but it still results in a high impedence path back to the transformer star point from the earth rod under fault or "leaky" conditions. Meaning there is still a high risk of electrocution leading to a fatality as the person in contact with the faulty piece of equipment is in pararrel with this fault circuit. Given Thailand's electrical methods, Safety switches will give you the required protection.
Safety switch ....earth leakage circuit breaker...... all the same thing just different names. There are however, some which are exclusively for detecting earth leakage and will trip accordingly at 10, 30 or even 50 milliamps although the common requirement is one at 30 milliamp. Others incorporate a circuit breaker to detect overcurrent as well and these are sometimes known as "combo's" for obvious reasons. We use quite sophisticated equipment to check earthing systems and the operation of safety switches and do not use cheap little neon screwdrivers.
Get a safety switch fitted by an electrician.

[papaguido]

I have this site bookmarked and I use for reference only. Maybe it'll help someone gain a better understanding of electrical installations.

http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

[UdonExpat]

I guess I've misunderstood the post. I thought the problem was a live wire out in a farm field that was not properly insulated, so when the man's body came in contact with it, he was electrocuted. This has nothing to do with grounding other than if the circuit been on a GFI or Safe-T-Cut he would have probably not been killed.

I still maintain that a live wire on most farms anywhere in the world is not likely to be on a GFI circuit and this accident could have happened anywhere in the world. It was the improper insulation of the wire that was the problem.

When I built my house I had it properly grounded and had a whole system Safe-T-Cut installed. I did this because of the primitive state of electrical service work and servicemen. To expect largely uneducated servicemen to read installation instructions is folly in the extreme. Most electricians are little more than ignorant men willing to risk their lives to earn a few baht. When I did outlet checks in my home more than half of them were not properly grounded and had to be fixed. The electrician thought it was not important, but did it because he wanted to get paid. There are no enforced electrical building codes, no licensing of electricians, and no one but yourself to be responsible. If you rent the situation is even more dangerous.

[Bandung_Dero]

I still maintain that a live wire on most farms anywhere in the world is not likely to be on a GFI circuit and this accident could have happened anywhere in the world. It was the improper insulation of the wire that was the problem.

I've got to disagree with this statement. My hobby farm had ALL POWER circuits protected and I'm guessing that most farms in Aust at least are the same. Also in Aust we do not normally place an RCD on lighting circuits and in my case I did not have my refrigerator on an RCD circuit either.

If the RCD was installed on the main isolator board then all areas should be protected even the victims dodgy wiring down in the shed that killed him. As we know most all village installations only have one isolator and one fuse or CCT breaker between the meter and consumer outlets, lights etc.

My home here in Thailand is split into 5 separate circuits and because they do not have a MEN (Multible Earth Neutral) here I used dual pole CCT Breakers as I had measured my neutral a more than 50 volts above earth on occasions. The star point of our stepdown transformer, which is about 500 meters away, is the only point at which the Neutral gets bonded to Earth. The two lighting circuits are not on RCD. (My choice).

I have 3 x 2 meter copper coated earth stakes all bonded and tied to a large earth bar. My power distribution is via 2.5 mm 2c + e TPS (Thermo Plastic Sheathed) cable. The lighting is 1.5mm 2c +e TPS cable. I did not let the Thais touch anything electrical or plumbing when building the place.