Land prices in the sticks.
Land prices in the sticks.
Just like a few members thoughts on a piece of land that is for sale in my TG's village,(Swannakhuha). The land is 18 rai in total and has three ponds on it which have been used in the past for farming fish, the ponds are roughly 1 rai each. The land has easy concrete road access and a, all year, around, water and electricity supply. I'm told the owner is selling to pay off his farther's gambleing debts. He is asking 300,000 baht for the land and has already turned down a offer of 200,000 from a local teacher. To me this land seems cheap, but if any body is able to tell me what the going rate is for such land, i'd really like to know? Our plan is to let my GF's parents work, and look after the land, and hopefully it will allow them to be more self sufficent. We were thinking of coutinueing with the fish farming in the ponds and may be seting a side a few rai to grow different crops such as Makua and chilli peppers. Any other ideas for use of land to give the parents some income would be appricated. Thanks in advance, Lesh.
You state that she is only your girl friend. That means that she can do what she wants with the land and you are out of the picture.
Before I would spend 300,000 Baht on a girl friend I would want to have some sort of guarantee that I could get some return on my money should the relationship head south.
If you want to spend that kind of money giving your girl friend a gift - why not go all the way and have your marriage registered. That way you won't be 100% out in the cold in the future. You will have the ability to recoup some of your investment.
Trust me - over here it isn't "just money." You have no idea of what will happen in your future and you might just well need that money yourself at some time in the future.
If you have 300,000 you want to just toss down the drain - which essentially you could be doing - how about loaning it to me? I can possibly pay you back, with interest in a couple, three, four years.
Your intentions are good. But to me - you are setting yourself up for major problems. The family is going to be turning to you to set it up for farming and what not. You could be setting yourself up to being seen as a "cash cow."
As for the price - 16,666 a Rai is not a bad price at all. Make sure that the land has a clear and clean title to it. Make sure that it wasn't government land to begin with - as this could cause problems in the future. Know of one case where it had been government land, but the family selling the land "squatted" on it for a number of years and that resulted in a major court case when the village wanted the land to make a park (supposedly.) The family lost the court case - but it was only after the intervention of the Thaksin government that the court case was over ruled and the family could then legally sell the land after certain conditions had been met.
Before I would spend 300,000 Baht on a girl friend I would want to have some sort of guarantee that I could get some return on my money should the relationship head south.
If you want to spend that kind of money giving your girl friend a gift - why not go all the way and have your marriage registered. That way you won't be 100% out in the cold in the future. You will have the ability to recoup some of your investment.
Trust me - over here it isn't "just money." You have no idea of what will happen in your future and you might just well need that money yourself at some time in the future.
If you have 300,000 you want to just toss down the drain - which essentially you could be doing - how about loaning it to me? I can possibly pay you back, with interest in a couple, three, four years.
Your intentions are good. But to me - you are setting yourself up for major problems. The family is going to be turning to you to set it up for farming and what not. You could be setting yourself up to being seen as a "cash cow."
As for the price - 16,666 a Rai is not a bad price at all. Make sure that the land has a clear and clean title to it. Make sure that it wasn't government land to begin with - as this could cause problems in the future. Know of one case where it had been government land, but the family selling the land "squatted" on it for a number of years and that resulted in a major court case when the village wanted the land to make a park (supposedly.) The family lost the court case - but it was only after the intervention of the Thaksin government that the court case was over ruled and the family could then legally sell the land after certain conditions had been met.
Ain't Easy Being Me
Doc wrote "If you want to spend that kind of money giving your girl friend a gift - why not go all the way and have your marriage registered. That way you won't be 100% out in the cold in the future. You will have the ability to recoup some of your investment."
I'm sure Doc knows a whole lot more than I about Thai land laws. It is my understanding that there is no way for a falang to have any kind of vested interest in Thai land. Even if a loan agreement were executed, once the land is in her name the agreement would most probably have the same value as the paper it is written on. On the other hand if you simply intend to give her this land as a gift I for one applaud you and if the relationship evolves you will certainly be perceived as kind and generous with a good heart. Oh and BTW price seems good to me.
I'm sure Doc knows a whole lot more than I about Thai land laws. It is my understanding that there is no way for a falang to have any kind of vested interest in Thai land. Even if a loan agreement were executed, once the land is in her name the agreement would most probably have the same value as the paper it is written on. On the other hand if you simply intend to give her this land as a gift I for one applaud you and if the relationship evolves you will certainly be perceived as kind and generous with a good heart. Oh and BTW price seems good to me.
-
valentine
Just a word about the ponds from a local experience.Last year a friend(Thai) bought some land with about a 2 rai pond on it. The land papers were all in order and the sale was completed. Afterwards she was served with a common usage order on the ponds, which meant, although she owned them there was a communal right to use them, not quite what she had in mind.Be careful.
Correct in one sense - but incorrect in another sense.jetdoc wrote:It is my understanding that there is no way for a falang to have any kind of vested interest in Thai land.
If you are legally married, in the event of a divorce, you would be "entitled" to 50% of the land value at the time of the divorce. That is what I mean by "vested interest."
Ideally - I would marry the girl legal and proper, then buy the land. At the time of the purchase, have her execute a 30 year lease in my name - and then let her family use the land. This would mean that no one (meaning the girl friend now wife) could sell the land out from under me without me knowing it. That would protect your "vested interest."
As far as the concept of "giving land as a gift" - I say bull hockey! This concept of some of just giving things away - is ridiculous. At todays exchange rates - 300,000 baht is slightly more than USD $9,000 - 6,700 Euros - 4,600 Pounds. If you wouldn't give that kind of money to someone in your own country or your own family - why in the he11 give it to someone in Thailand?
Things that are earned have more value than things that are just given to someone. The girl earns 50% of the land by marrying and taking care of Lesh. That gives her incentive to try to make the marriage work as opposed to looking around for a better catch.
Ain't Easy Being Me
-
valentine
Sorry Doc, wrong.When you divorce you are entitled to 50% share of jointly owned assets. As the land would be soley in the wifes name it would not count as a joint asset. A house on the land however would qualify.Doc wrote:Correct in one sense - but incorrect in another sense.jetdoc wrote:It is my understanding that there is no way for a falang to have any kind of vested interest in Thai land.
If you are legally married, in the event of a divorce, you would be "entitled" to 50% of the land value at the time of the divorce. That is what I mean by "vested interest."
.
-
laphanphon
-
valentine
The legal situation on this type of land is that it was given to the occupiers by the govt with the stipulation it cannot be sold for 10 years but can be transferred within the immediate family should the original holder die. It is distinguished on the land paper by having a green garuda rather than the normal; red one.Neither can it be used for obtaining a loan against it as collateral.Lesh wrote:Well thanks for all the advice chaps. We've just found out the title deed of the land is Sor Por Kor so we will shall not be buying the land. From what i've been reading this deed may only be transferred to the direct heirs of the pearson who owns it.
It may be worth considering that in the Nong Bua Lamphu area where I believe your land is, that the ten years may be almost up if your prepared to wait.
Sor Por Kor
"The legal situation on this type of land is that it was given to the occupiers by the govt with the stipulation it cannot be sold for 10 years but can be transferred within the immediate family should the original holder die. It is distinguished on the land paper by having a green garuda rather than the normal; red one.Neither can it be used for obtaining a loan against it as collateral.
It may be worth considering that in the Nong Bua Lamphu area where I believe your land is, that the ten years may be almost up if your prepared to wait."
I find this interesting.
When my wife bought her land in Surin I was there to observe the transaction and I have never seen a land transaction such as this ever! After waiting all day and about to head to the hotel the lady from Buriram showed on her motor bike and the deal was on. To show ownership of the land she produced a couple sheets of paper torn out of a note book. I thought this a little strange but hey I'm learning. Soon a guy with a water department jacket showed up and basically officiated the transaction. The land was measured and some discussion in Thai about wether the measurement should be from the center of the soi and one of the boundaries was argued about rather heatedly. It was finally agreed that a certain tree was used as the boundary marker for 50 years and wasn't going to be changed now. The water department guy drew up more official looking paperwork and the money was paid and the deal was done. Time to eat the moo slaughtered earlier that day. What's interesting is, there is a clause in the contract that the seller (or family of the seller - I think) has a right for a period of 10 years to repurchase the land and any improvements. If the seller opts to exercise this right there is a stiff penalty involved so it is highly unlikely that it would happen. One of my good Thai friends assures me that this type of transaction is quite common in Thailand so not to worry. When I saw Val's post I now wonder if the wife's land in Surin is Sor Por Kor.
"The legal situation on this type of land is that it was given to the occupiers by the govt with the stipulation it cannot be sold for 10 years but can be transferred within the immediate family should the original holder die. It is distinguished on the land paper by having a green garuda rather than the normal; red one.Neither can it be used for obtaining a loan against it as collateral.
It may be worth considering that in the Nong Bua Lamphu area where I believe your land is, that the ten years may be almost up if your prepared to wait."
I find this interesting.
When my wife bought her land in Surin I was there to observe the transaction and I have never seen a land transaction such as this ever! After waiting all day and about to head to the hotel the lady from Buriram showed on her motor bike and the deal was on. To show ownership of the land she produced a couple sheets of paper torn out of a note book. I thought this a little strange but hey I'm learning. Soon a guy with a water department jacket showed up and basically officiated the transaction. The land was measured and some discussion in Thai about wether the measurement should be from the center of the soi and one of the boundaries was argued about rather heatedly. It was finally agreed that a certain tree was used as the boundary marker for 50 years and wasn't going to be changed now. The water department guy drew up more official looking paperwork and the money was paid and the deal was done. Time to eat the moo slaughtered earlier that day. What's interesting is, there is a clause in the contract that the seller (or family of the seller - I think) has a right for a period of 10 years to repurchase the land and any improvements. If the seller opts to exercise this right there is a stiff penalty involved so it is highly unlikely that it would happen. One of my good Thai friends assures me that this type of transaction is quite common in Thailand so not to worry. When I saw Val's post I now wonder if the wife's land in Surin is Sor Por Kor.
-
valentine
Jetdoc. Sorry to have to tell you, I don't think you have bought any land. There are several discrepancies from the norm you have mentioned. The first involves the boundary. There can be no dispute as to where the boundary of any piece of land lies. It is clearly marked by official numbered posts, there about 6" high and 2" round, each one of which bears a number, These can be checked at the local Amphoe where a map of the complete area will be on display and these registration numbers will be clearly visible. The land registration document you will have been given will show the details of your plot in relation to adjoining ones. It will give its dimensions and the post number at each corner will be detailed.If the plot you are buying is in itself, being separated from a larger plot, the land office surveyor will come and measure your piece and will put fresh markers in to indicate your boundaries, this will then be recorded on the overall map. You will be issued with new land papers showing this and the original paper with the larger area will be amended to deduct the area you have bought.The second item of worry." She showed some torn bits of paper to prove ownership of the land. I don't want to comment on this, I"m sure you will know what I would say.The guy wearing the water jacket is not significant, they have been known to moonlight with two jobs.However the clause in the contract. There can be no clauses in a contract to buy land, you either do or you don't. If you haven't got the land registry papers in your possession, you haven't.There may however be a contract if you are making a promise to buy at a future date, or indeed , if you are loaning money against the security of the land.But in either case it is not yet your land.Your final sentence," You wonder if the wifes land is Sor Por Kor"Sorry if it is, it isn't your wifes land. Question time I think. best of luck.
I don't have a clue as to what goes on with the various land deals. One thing I hear is she want to sell land but no paper. Then it's followed with "can buy but have to wait for paper. My good Thai friend (a Teacher in Nong Wa So) tells me that after the 10 years that my wife can then register the land and get the proper papers. It isn't a big deal for me as I am basically an observer. I would hate to see my wife get screwed, unless it's me. One thing I have noticed in Thailand is the old adage "possession is 9/10ths of the law" seems to hold true here also. Time will tell;o)
-
arjay
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 8345
- Joined: October 2, 2005, 12:19 pm
- Location: Gone to get a life, "troll free"
Jetdoc, I would be a bit worried if someone said to me, "sell land but no paper".
Maybe the paper is with the bank, and maybe the person selling has borrowed money from the bank on the security of that land, and thus if you were to try and proceed with the purchase you would either have to clear the existing debt or at least inherit the responsibility for clearing that debt (mortgage)??!!
Maybe the paper is with the bank, and maybe the person selling has borrowed money from the bank on the security of that land, and thus if you were to try and proceed with the purchase you would either have to clear the existing debt or at least inherit the responsibility for clearing that debt (mortgage)??!!
-
valentine
The alternative scenario is that the land has never been registered, meaning it is still common land and technically the property of the Crown.(There is a clue this may be the case in the friend saying you can register it in 10 years)arjay wrote:Jetdoc, I would be a bit worried if someone said to me, "sell land but no paper".
Maybe the paper is with the bank, and maybe the person selling has borrowed money from the bank on the security of that land, and thus if you were to try and proceed with the purchase you would either have to clear the existing debt or at least inherit the responsibility for clearing that debt (mortgage)??!!
This is a far more worrying scenario as it was never anyones property to sell.
There are no apparent hard and fast rules about this type of land but by precedent. Every so often the govt will take a certain area and offer the land (Free) to occupier/users that can prove a history of family usage going back a number of years (The bits of paper?)They then register the land and issue , firstly the Sor Por Kor, subject to the previously mentioned rules and after 10 years the restrictions are lifted and normal land registry papers are issued.
If this is the case with Jetdocs purchase the following worries occur:
By attempting to sell the land, she has broken the continuous usage chain
and therefore it is unlikely that it can be given to her.If his wife attempted to use it by farming or building on it, they are technically illegal squatters,
and subject to, at least, any developement being demolished and possibly a heavy fine.Of course eviction from the land would be automatic.
Any of these possibilities can be instantly checked by a visit to the land registry office in the area.
First any references to me buying land are false. Now the land my wife bought is across the soi from where he parents live and the entire area is populated with relatives and has been for many generations. Although my wife only has the typical 6th grade education, I'm hear to tell you she is one sharp cookie. I mean I wasn't smart enough to retire at age 26!!! Anyway I have no idea if history will have any bearing on the future, but it appears to me that Thai's have been conducting business this way for long before I got here and will probably continue to do so long after I'm gone. The price of the land was minimal, however the house will come in at about 1 mil give or take. As I said before I would hate to see my wife loose her investment but it will not effect me or my quality of life;o) If I'm still around ten years from now I shall post how it shakes out.;o)