Dave, I checked the site that you recommended. Looks good - it will help with some of the pronunciation problems!
Do the Thais in Issan speak more Lao or Thai or is there some combo?[/quote]
Returning to Udon as an Adult
Bit of a combo but Thai is better to use I have found. I have learnt a lot of Lao and we speak it at home, but when I have been in Thailand and spoken in Lao not using the polite Thai norms poeple have thought I was a bit rude (actually a kind of farang rude as if I didn't care to learn Thai properly). So now I am learning as much Thai as possible.
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arjay
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Lila, people in Issan do tend to speak a local dialect, which I believe does overlap with Laos language. Thai language taught in language schools is the "Bangkok Thai" language, and would be understood by most people quite well wherever in Thailand, and would be considered to be more "correct" and "polite", so you shouldn't have a problem if you learn the normal Thai language.
That is my understanding of the situation!!
That is my understanding of the situation!!
Lila the language that is spoken here is Issan it is a mix of Thai and lao, just as the area really is, this at one time wa a psrt of Laos. Thai i taight at all the school, the reason Issan is considered a lower class language, not my idea. But Thias are very status oreitnated, try to get a Thai teahe here to teach you Issan and you have a battle on your hands, when they infact know the language well. I have trouble people here understanding my Thai and yet in Bangkok no problem at all.
But don't worry the Thais here will love you for trying even if they don't understand you well. You would be surprised how many farrangs come here and live for years wohtout ever trying to learn the language. The Thais will appreciate your efforts beleive me. Most of the shops will have someone around who can speak some english. even in the villages ther usually is that person who ha worked in Bangkok or something that speaks a bit of englsih.
I'm happy you are putting togehter such effort you will be rewarded in your visit.
But don't worry the Thais here will love you for trying even if they don't understand you well. You would be surprised how many farrangs come here and live for years wohtout ever trying to learn the language. The Thais will appreciate your efforts beleive me. Most of the shops will have someone around who can speak some english. even in the villages ther usually is that person who ha worked in Bangkok or something that speaks a bit of englsih.
I'm happy you are putting togehter such effort you will be rewarded in your visit.
Lila ,
I can not forget "nong Hin" - there is an Ampoer "Nong Hin" อำเภอหนองหิน จังหวัดเลย in Loei Province. (Loei is close to Udon Province)
and about "Nong Hua Moo" - could it not be "Nong Bua Lamphu" a former ampoer of Udon Thani Province but now a Province of its own.
Good luck!
Mangkot
I can not forget "nong Hin" - there is an Ampoer "Nong Hin" อำเภอหนองหิน จังหวัดเลย in Loei Province. (Loei is close to Udon Province)
and about "Nong Hua Moo" - could it not be "Nong Bua Lamphu" a former ampoer of Udon Thani Province but now a Province of its own.
Good luck!
Mangkot
ห้องสมุดโรงพยาบาลศรีธัญญา
Isaan Lao
Lila,
a bit of historical background.. Around 1824 the Lao individual got into a dustup with an individual of Thailand when the Lao murdered a Thai group representing the Thai individual. It happened on Don Chan Island near Vientiane. In retaliation, the Thai individual brought his army up to Vientiane, laid complete waste to the city and took into slavery as many lowland Lao as he could grab. Many of these folk ended up populating northeastern Thailand as the bonded slaves of the Thai individual's appointed princelings. Others were taken to the Bangkok area where as slaves they dug many of the klongs. Even today, if you travel west of Bangkok near the Damnouen floating market area, there are areas where people still speak a Lao dialect.
On Lao in Thailand.. Several years ago the Thai government did a survey of the various Lao dialects spoken in Thailand. The government stated that out of a population of around 63 million people, about 17 million spoke some form of Lao. This includes most of the northeastern Thailand area (Isaan), as well as the northern Chiang Mai/Chiang Rai areas. Since today, the population of Laos is only around 5.4 million people, of which, not all speak lowland Lao, it kinda makes you wonder where the true heart of Lao is located..
On the cultural sneering of some Thais toward those speaking Lao dialects.. Yes it's there, but perhaps not as firmly embedded as it was years ago. Perhaps it's more prevalent in educated Isaan folks who see speaking only Central Thai as a "step up" the economic ladder. And yes, there are many Central Thais who look at most Isaan as being the equivalent of Jed and Granny Clampett, country bumpkins come to the big city. I've got some of my relatives who absolutely mandate that their kids speak nothing but Central Thai, even at home.. Others speak only Isaan..
I'd say overall though that most Isaan are fiercely proud of the fact that they are indeed Isaan, born and bred in an impoverished area of Thailand. Most folks here are tied to the land, at least in their hearts, and many are the Isaan who go to Bangkok for years, to work, but still dream of that piece of farmland in Isaan..
Many Isaan folk in Bangkok use their Isaan dialect as almost a secret language, rattling it off at lightspeed, sprinkling it with Isaan slang to the point where a Central Thai can only look on in total bewilderment, not understand 1 word out of 10... It's a known fact that you can get into about 80% of the taxis in Bangkok and tell the driver, "You're from Roiet (a city in Isaan), right??" and they'll laughingly confirm your guess.
sorry I blathered on, but I respect the tough folk that live up here, and the Isaan dialect is an integral part of their ehnic Lao identity.
a bit of historical background.. Around 1824 the Lao individual got into a dustup with an individual of Thailand when the Lao murdered a Thai group representing the Thai individual. It happened on Don Chan Island near Vientiane. In retaliation, the Thai individual brought his army up to Vientiane, laid complete waste to the city and took into slavery as many lowland Lao as he could grab. Many of these folk ended up populating northeastern Thailand as the bonded slaves of the Thai individual's appointed princelings. Others were taken to the Bangkok area where as slaves they dug many of the klongs. Even today, if you travel west of Bangkok near the Damnouen floating market area, there are areas where people still speak a Lao dialect.
On Lao in Thailand.. Several years ago the Thai government did a survey of the various Lao dialects spoken in Thailand. The government stated that out of a population of around 63 million people, about 17 million spoke some form of Lao. This includes most of the northeastern Thailand area (Isaan), as well as the northern Chiang Mai/Chiang Rai areas. Since today, the population of Laos is only around 5.4 million people, of which, not all speak lowland Lao, it kinda makes you wonder where the true heart of Lao is located..
On the cultural sneering of some Thais toward those speaking Lao dialects.. Yes it's there, but perhaps not as firmly embedded as it was years ago. Perhaps it's more prevalent in educated Isaan folks who see speaking only Central Thai as a "step up" the economic ladder. And yes, there are many Central Thais who look at most Isaan as being the equivalent of Jed and Granny Clampett, country bumpkins come to the big city. I've got some of my relatives who absolutely mandate that their kids speak nothing but Central Thai, even at home.. Others speak only Isaan..
I'd say overall though that most Isaan are fiercely proud of the fact that they are indeed Isaan, born and bred in an impoverished area of Thailand. Most folks here are tied to the land, at least in their hearts, and many are the Isaan who go to Bangkok for years, to work, but still dream of that piece of farmland in Isaan..
Many Isaan folk in Bangkok use their Isaan dialect as almost a secret language, rattling it off at lightspeed, sprinkling it with Isaan slang to the point where a Central Thai can only look on in total bewilderment, not understand 1 word out of 10... It's a known fact that you can get into about 80% of the taxis in Bangkok and tell the driver, "You're from Roiet (a city in Isaan), right??" and they'll laughingly confirm your guess.
sorry I blathered on, but I respect the tough folk that live up here, and the Isaan dialect is an integral part of their ehnic Lao identity.
Dave
You are spot on about the cultural identity Dave. My wifes family speak both Central Thai and the Issan Dialect, but always the dialect when amongst family and friends. If it crops up in conversation about them being Thai, the standard response is "no, Lao". If my TW makes a mistake in english and realises it, her standard response is "sorry, Lao English"
Many in Issan are very proud of their heritage, which shows in many ways through beliefs, music and traditions; in fact I've seen quite a bit of reverse snobbery towards those from other areas, especially Bangkok.
Many in Issan are very proud of their heritage, which shows in many ways through beliefs, music and traditions; in fact I've seen quite a bit of reverse snobbery towards those from other areas, especially Bangkok.
FrazeeDK, you are so dead on it is not funny. It amazes me at some of the snubbery being done when some are only one or two generations removed from Laos.
From doing a small tour of Laos, it is such a splended country and when I came back Mother in Law laughed at me as I enjoyed Laos. It is such a shame that they struggle in such poverty as they have so much to offer.
From doing a small tour of Laos, it is such a splended country and when I came back Mother in Law laughed at me as I enjoyed Laos. It is such a shame that they struggle in such poverty as they have so much to offer.
Thai-Lao History
I googled and the absolute best link for a detailed history of Chou Anou's revolt against the Thai is at:
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-7750.html
Another thorn in Thai/Lao relations even today is the Emerald Buddha:
When individual Rama I was still a general during the Thonburi period in 1778 he captured the town of Vientiane and brought the Emerald Buddha back to Thailand. With the establishment of Bangkok as the capital, beginning the Rattanakosin period and the Chakri Dynasty, the Emerald Buddha became the palladium of Thailand and has been here ever since. On the 22nd of March 1784 the image was moved from Thonburi to the Temple of the Emerald Buddha.
In 1778, a rebellion was started which resulted in individual Taksin sending the Siamese military to Vien Chang. The city was looted and its sacred images, including the Emerald Buddha, were taken back to Siam. In addition, members of the Lao Royal Family were taken to Siam as hostages. Later, the Siamese individual Rama I, took an interest in Lao affairs. Vien Chang was rebuilt and again began to grow.
Lao individual Anouvong, also known as Chao Anou, grew up in Siam, but later moved back to Laos and in 1804 succeeded his two elder brothers to rule over the Kingdom of Lan Xang. individual Anouvang attended the funeral of Thai individual Rama II in Bangkok and was very insulted by the way he was treated. On his return to Vien Chang, he started to plan a revolt against Siam which finally took place in 1826. The revolt was unsuccesful and in 1827 Siamese military forces again invaded Vientiane and destroyed the city. This time the destruction was almost total. The two original temples, Haw Pha Kaew and Pha That Luang were decimated. Wat Si Saket was the only remaining temple to survive the destruction.
The revolt resulted in the Thai's sending envoys to discuss peace. They met on Don Chan Island and legend has it after a large feast with lots of Lao Kao the Thai envoys were murdered in their sleep by the Lao individual's military.
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-7750.html
Another thorn in Thai/Lao relations even today is the Emerald Buddha:
When individual Rama I was still a general during the Thonburi period in 1778 he captured the town of Vientiane and brought the Emerald Buddha back to Thailand. With the establishment of Bangkok as the capital, beginning the Rattanakosin period and the Chakri Dynasty, the Emerald Buddha became the palladium of Thailand and has been here ever since. On the 22nd of March 1784 the image was moved from Thonburi to the Temple of the Emerald Buddha.
In 1778, a rebellion was started which resulted in individual Taksin sending the Siamese military to Vien Chang. The city was looted and its sacred images, including the Emerald Buddha, were taken back to Siam. In addition, members of the Lao Royal Family were taken to Siam as hostages. Later, the Siamese individual Rama I, took an interest in Lao affairs. Vien Chang was rebuilt and again began to grow.
Lao individual Anouvong, also known as Chao Anou, grew up in Siam, but later moved back to Laos and in 1804 succeeded his two elder brothers to rule over the Kingdom of Lan Xang. individual Anouvang attended the funeral of Thai individual Rama II in Bangkok and was very insulted by the way he was treated. On his return to Vien Chang, he started to plan a revolt against Siam which finally took place in 1826. The revolt was unsuccesful and in 1827 Siamese military forces again invaded Vientiane and destroyed the city. This time the destruction was almost total. The two original temples, Haw Pha Kaew and Pha That Luang were decimated. Wat Si Saket was the only remaining temple to survive the destruction.
The revolt resulted in the Thai's sending envoys to discuss peace. They met on Don Chan Island and legend has it after a large feast with lots of Lao Kao the Thai envoys were murdered in their sleep by the Lao individual's military.
Dave
As I was reading "Looking for a Girlfriend", there were a few posts that talked about the way people dressed. Can someone please provide a list of do's & don'ts? I already dress pretty conservatively, but since I am trying to pack lightly, I'd like to try & bring stuff that will make me not look like too much of a tourist! 
I know it will be hot in June & that I should cover up after dusk so I don't get eaten alive, but any good advice would be appreciated.
Oh & Dave, Thanks for the history lessons! You should have been a teacher!
I know it will be hot in June & that I should cover up after dusk so I don't get eaten alive, but any good advice would be appreciated.Oh & Dave, Thanks for the history lessons! You should have been a teacher!
Returning to Udon as an Adult
Lila --
I was in Udon for two weeks and managed on one 26" suitcase and a small carryon. For casual, I packed capri pants (mid-calf) that gave more cover than shorts, along with shirts with either short sleeves or 3/4 sleeves. Jeans are fine, too. I wore sleeveless tees underneath and could take off the overshirt in the privacy of the house with family. I also brought several loose skirts that could be worn with the shirts/tops. I wore sandals for two weeks -- bring some flat sandals for walking and at least one pair with heels for "dress" occasions; you might need sneakers if you're planning to hike. Fabricwise -- try for cotton/blends that dry quickly or synthetics that wick the moisture away from your skin.
Shara
I was in Udon for two weeks and managed on one 26" suitcase and a small carryon. For casual, I packed capri pants (mid-calf) that gave more cover than shorts, along with shirts with either short sleeves or 3/4 sleeves. Jeans are fine, too. I wore sleeveless tees underneath and could take off the overshirt in the privacy of the house with family. I also brought several loose skirts that could be worn with the shirts/tops. I wore sandals for two weeks -- bring some flat sandals for walking and at least one pair with heels for "dress" occasions; you might need sneakers if you're planning to hike. Fabricwise -- try for cotton/blends that dry quickly or synthetics that wick the moisture away from your skin.
Shara
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thaistix
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Lila...
I guess you can say that I was sort of in the same situation as you. I was born in Udon back in 1964. I left there in 1975 right when they were closing Udon Royal Thai Air Force Base. My mother married an American Air Force man. So we moved to Northern California. I was 10 yrs old when I got to U.S., and I did not know how to speak English. But I managed to graduate from High School and one year of college. Now I am a Master Sergeant with 20 years in the United States Air Force. I am a Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom war veteran. I will be retired in July of 2007.
Anyways, I went to Thailand back in April of 2005 for 3 weeks, and I had a blast. It was 30 yrs absent for me. Thailand is a lot different from 30 yrs ago. I didn't even recognized my home town. I was born in Ban Mu Mon, just northwest of downtown Udon. I went to see my real father and met my little sister which I didn't know I had one. I guess she's not little anymore. She's 33 yrs with 2 children of her own.
I think you shouldn't be worried too much. You shouldn't have any trouble at all. People were very polite and helpful to me. Trust me, being in the military and traveled all over the world experancing many cultures, Thailand's got to be the most respectful and thoughtful people of all. Thailand is so much different now. I didn't have any problems at all. I didn't speak Thai growing up in the States but I managed to do okay now. It was 15 yrs ago, after I came back from Desert Storm war, when I decided to learn Thai and Isaan again. I speak a little of both Thai and Isaan. I don't want to say Laos because there is a little different between the two. I know this because there is a very large Laos community in Sacramento, California where I live. Plus, my ex-wife was Laos.
I guess I was trying to say is that leave all the worries behind. Just enjoy it while you can. Life is so short. Take advantage of every opportunities you have. Have fun!!!
As for me, it's going to be an annual visitation. I'm going back in July of this year.
I guess you can say that I was sort of in the same situation as you. I was born in Udon back in 1964. I left there in 1975 right when they were closing Udon Royal Thai Air Force Base. My mother married an American Air Force man. So we moved to Northern California. I was 10 yrs old when I got to U.S., and I did not know how to speak English. But I managed to graduate from High School and one year of college. Now I am a Master Sergeant with 20 years in the United States Air Force. I am a Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom war veteran. I will be retired in July of 2007.
Anyways, I went to Thailand back in April of 2005 for 3 weeks, and I had a blast. It was 30 yrs absent for me. Thailand is a lot different from 30 yrs ago. I didn't even recognized my home town. I was born in Ban Mu Mon, just northwest of downtown Udon. I went to see my real father and met my little sister which I didn't know I had one. I guess she's not little anymore. She's 33 yrs with 2 children of her own.
I think you shouldn't be worried too much. You shouldn't have any trouble at all. People were very polite and helpful to me. Trust me, being in the military and traveled all over the world experancing many cultures, Thailand's got to be the most respectful and thoughtful people of all. Thailand is so much different now. I didn't have any problems at all. I didn't speak Thai growing up in the States but I managed to do okay now. It was 15 yrs ago, after I came back from Desert Storm war, when I decided to learn Thai and Isaan again. I speak a little of both Thai and Isaan. I don't want to say Laos because there is a little different between the two. I know this because there is a very large Laos community in Sacramento, California where I live. Plus, my ex-wife was Laos.
I guess I was trying to say is that leave all the worries behind. Just enjoy it while you can. Life is so short. Take advantage of every opportunities you have. Have fun!!!
As for me, it's going to be an annual visitation. I'm going back in July of this year.
Life's a bi-otch.
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PopsIcafe
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thaistix, that was very well put. Coming back was the best thing I did. The Thai people, as you said, are ver helpful, respectful and easy to get along with. It really doesn't take much for all that to happen. For those who were born here and returning again as adults, well you will be well received by the people of the town or village you are from. They will ask you alot of questions and I know they will be teaching you all the Thai and Isaan you want to learn during the time you are here. By the way I'm a farang and I was well received by the people in the village where my late wife was from in Surin.
Pop's
Pop's
Slowly, but surely, thanks to talking to my mom & reading all of your posts, my worries are receding. I am really very excited about my trip, however, I am dreading the long flight! I truly wish I had done this about 10 years ago before I had kids & had more of an adventurous spirit.
Thaistix, I really appreciate your post. Although our ages were a little different, I believe the return trip for me will be quite the same, except I don't expect to find any younger siblings, maybe tons of cousins!!!!
Have a great day all!
Lila
Thaistix, I really appreciate your post. Although our ages were a little different, I believe the return trip for me will be quite the same, except I don't expect to find any younger siblings, maybe tons of cousins!!!!
Have a great day all!
Lila
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thaistix
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Lila...
You're right. The only bad part of the trip is the flight. I think yours is longer than mine. I had flight from Sacramento to San Francisco, stop in Taipei, to Bangkok and then to Udon. But I couldn't get an earlier flight from Bangkok to Udon on last year's trip. I spent 6 hrs in the airport. (The beers were nice and cold though).
I know there are 3 airlines that have flights to Udon...Thai Air, Nok Air and Asia Air, and each has 3 separate time flights. I believe the earliest flights are right around 1:00-2:00 P.M. and the last around 6 - 8 P.M.
I think Nok Air is the cheapest of the 3. Other than the flights, everything else should be fine.
I hope this will help in some ways.
You're right. The only bad part of the trip is the flight. I think yours is longer than mine. I had flight from Sacramento to San Francisco, stop in Taipei, to Bangkok and then to Udon. But I couldn't get an earlier flight from Bangkok to Udon on last year's trip. I spent 6 hrs in the airport. (The beers were nice and cold though).
I know there are 3 airlines that have flights to Udon...Thai Air, Nok Air and Asia Air, and each has 3 separate time flights. I believe the earliest flights are right around 1:00-2:00 P.M. and the last around 6 - 8 P.M.
I think Nok Air is the cheapest of the 3. Other than the flights, everything else should be fine.
I hope this will help in some ways.
Life's a bi-otch.
Lila,
If you haven't already made flight arrangements, you might want to check out Thai Airways non-stop flight from New York JFK to Bangkok, a 17 hour flight over the polar icecaps. Round trip from JFK is currently under 1100 US dollars. My wife and I are booked on this flight later this month so don't have first-hand information on the amenities offered but a few others in the forum, GulfcoastUSA and albeach, have mentioned and recommended this flight, also.
Anyway, bon voyage and enjoy your trip.
If you haven't already made flight arrangements, you might want to check out Thai Airways non-stop flight from New York JFK to Bangkok, a 17 hour flight over the polar icecaps. Round trip from JFK is currently under 1100 US dollars. My wife and I are booked on this flight later this month so don't have first-hand information on the amenities offered but a few others in the forum, GulfcoastUSA and albeach, have mentioned and recommended this flight, also.
Anyway, bon voyage and enjoy your trip.
You know, maybe we booked our tickets too early, because I couldn't find much less than $1200 when we got our tix in Feb. However, being a good 3-4 hour drive from JFK, I think we did ok since we will be flying out of Harrisburg, only 20 minutes from home. Of course the trip is longer, but it saves a few transportation headaches. Maybe next trip we can go out of JFK since my in-laws are only about an hour from there.