Englishman accused of killing Thai wife.

Post by **trubrit** » February 7, 2009, 2:13 pm

This is a factual report based on my interviews with the accused, the dead womans family and from items and photographs taken at the scene.
The family involved were an English man, aged 49 his Thaigirl friend 36,who had three young children aged from 6 to 11.The man was severely disabled from a previous violent incident in the UK which meant he could only walk with the aid of an extending crutch under his arm.They had all lived together in a small bungalow which he had built and financed located in a village area of Nong wau Sor.
On the early morning of 4th Feb, apprx 7am, the youngest child entered her mothers bedroom to get her dinner money. The sight that she saw caused her to call her older brother, who then entered the room. The man was laying on the bed covered in blood and the woman was on the floor also bleeding severely.The man said"mare die lao"
The child ran to his grans house not far away and she came to the scene with him.Both the man and the woman were partially naked.She covered her daughter with towels and called the police.Upon arrival the police imediately called for an ambulance and both were initially sent to the hospital in Nong Wau Sor.The woman being immediately transfered to Udon hospital because of the life threatening nature of her injuries, where by coincidence, my wife and I were already.
The man was later transfered about midday.
We rushed across to ICU and saw the victim on life support but with little brain activity. Outside the family members were just arriving obviously in a state of shock.These people were from our village and known to my wife, so naturally we tried to help and counsel them.We eventually went home in the late evening.About 9pm a police officer was at my door with a request from his boss to help them.I went to the station where I saw some of the evidence and learnt more from the police report. I was asked if I would help them the next day mainly to explain to the man what was happening, to which I naturally agreed. Soon after we were informed the woman had died.
The next morning I was taken to the station where the man had been brought. He was in a very bad state with both eyes completely closed and extensive bruising on his head and neck, he was also complaining of hurting in the rib area.However he recognised me and asked why he had been brought to the station not to his home.The interviewing officer gave me a list of questions to put to him.It was apparent from his replies that he may have been in shock. repeatedly asking where his wife was.Further questioning followed this apparent denial of the facts.
At this stage I hadn't told him of her death but asked how he had got those horrific injuries, had he been in a car accident? He replied, no car, hospital put something in his eyes to make them like that.In all I had been interviewing him for two hours without telling him of his wifes death. I then suggested to the officer that he lets him have a break and maybe reality would set in later. I was asked to come back in the evening when a lawyer would be present and he would be formally charged with her murder.
To be continued.

Post by **polehawk** » February 7, 2009, 2:40 pm

Not meant as a slag and know that you were trying to help but wondering why a lawyer wasn't found for the guy BEFORE any questions were asked? Realize that Thai laws are different from back home (Miranda rights in the US) but was he offered the chance to speak to a lawyer first?

Post by **wazza** » February 7, 2009, 2:53 pm

Val

This is still your version of events. My only question is, why didnt u ring his Embassy ??? and allow them to represent him , unless you have a power of attorney for him ? No mention of Tourist Police assistance either.

U must have seen Big Wave Dave then at the hospital ?? as he saw the guy being admitted for care also ??

By posting even further information which you claim was obtained in the presence of the alleged person and in the presence of Police authorities who have used you to interpret ??? you have prejudiced his abilty to defend any allegations or accusations. Was the record of interview recorded and then translated by yourself and provided to him?

Does your status in Thailand, allow you to conduct this interview , no matter what the local Police may ask of you.

This guys legal team ?? or his embassy could tear strips off you , for what you have done to represent yourself with the Police in the interview.

Post by **trubrit** » February 7, 2009, 2:54 pm

In the evening, in the presence of a lawyer, who didn't speak English and two tourist police officers, and the captain of police he was formally read his rights, first by the police and then by myself as he apparently didn't understand the police.He was still in denial of his wifes death, even when presented with the court order that gave details of it, with which he was formally charged.As the lawyer was playing absolutely no part in the proceedings I advised him to exercise his right to remain silent, but he still protested that she wasn't dead. When he was asked to sign the charge sheet to the effect he understood the charges, not as an admission of guilt but simply understood them. He still refused saying "She is not dead, I want to go home and see her."At this point, it was nearly midnight, so I arranged for some shoes and clothing to be brought for him. Then I found out the British Embassy hadn't been informed of his arrest. I volunteered to take care of that and also gave them details of his next of kin.He appeared in court the next day 6th, where he was detained in custody.Also on the 6th I attended the cremation of the body of his wife. At the same time lots of bedding and other artifacts all covered in blood were burnt.
Today 7th a consular officer from the Embassy has arrived to see him. I understand whilst they can recommend an English speaking lawyer, they cannot assist with costs, and a guarantor to cover these, must be found before they will start work. As the man has told me he doesn't have any money and his mother , who is 83 lives in a state nursing home. So it seems he is on his own and the most aid he will get is from me., and I have absolutely no qualifications. As to the future. I have today spoken to the Chief of Police who has intimated that he would be prepared to accept a plea of temporary insanity. But I have to ask myself . How far do I get involved. When is enough, enough?
My wife and I are deeply involved with the deceased's family, counselling them as to what monetary help they can get. Remember there are three very young children to be brought up by an elderly gran, who is herself widowed. The natural father of the kids having died in an accident.Again I don't hold much hope of achieving anything.But we will try .

Post by **trubrit** » February 7, 2009, 2:58 pm

Waza. Your questions are answered in my second part. As to BWD. I assume he was in Nong Wau Sor not Udon hospital, but I can't see the relevance of your question, or of the further one about my status. I would be quite prepared to explain if you care to start another topic..

Post by **wazza** » February 7, 2009, 3:01 pm

The Police and his Embassy should have him assessed Clinically by a qualified person, not a GP. The Embassy know this for sure.

Post by **wazza** » February 7, 2009, 3:13 pm

Val

You have represented yourself to be a person of authority or approved by the Police etc to assist in a serious ongoing police investigation which appears to have significant consequences.

Are you qualified to provide translation services that can stand up in court ?? If the answer is No, then the guy will state you mislead him and didnt even provide a copy of the original interview that you assisted in.

Whilst your intention may have been to assist him, what is now occuring could be interpreted by his defence as being hostile to his case as he gave no approval to you to represent him ? , Any statement/s made were under duress and no hard copy available to him after you translated ? the questions from the authorities.

Post by **trubrit** » February 7, 2009, 3:18 pm

Wazza It is obvious you are determined to change this topic into a slanging match. There is a topic open on relationships where you can try to your hearts content. In the meantime you seem to have more knowlege of legal affairs than me. perhaps you can volunteer your services.

Post by **wazza** » February 7, 2009, 3:38 pm

Val

not at all,

What has happened with your post/s is that details of a serious incident has been posted on this forum by yourself and it outlines what actions / services you have provided to the local authorities in assisting with the formal interview/s of an Expat who is alleged to have been involved with the death of his wife / partner / defacto ( what ever the Thai authorities deem it as )

What im saying is, you didnt have any formal authority to provide these services , unless the guy approved you. It may have started off as trying to help an Expat , but the slippery slope soon appeared.

Your attendance at the interview is now part of the evidence chain ? and anything he signed or said at the time, could be challenged by him as being misrepresentation by yourself.

As for volunteering my services, well Im not a lawyer, I have received training in the giving of statements, the preservation of evidence , and court appearances.

The lessons here are:

Dont represent yourself to assist in any significant Police investigations when it comes to translations, signed documents, ongoing discussions with authorities,

Ring the appropriate Embassy, Tourist Police whose job it is to provide assistance under Thai law.

Post by **trubrit** » February 7, 2009, 3:50 pm

I think thats enough Waza. Either put up or shut up. These are people caught up in a terrible event that really we should be showing compassion for , even if we can't help them .Your knowledge of the law regarding statements appears to me to be the basic training given to every , even the lowest rank copper in the UK.I suggest that if you are that concerned you may be interested in being a guarantor for the lawyers fees. PM me and I will give you details how to do it.

Post by **arjay** » February 7, 2009, 4:13 pm

Val, Presumably the police will have, or will be, considering the possibility that a third party may have been involved, e.g. someone could have entered the bedroom with the intention of killing either or both of them?

It sounds like the Embassy does not provide the 'accused' with a lawyer, but will assist him in finding one, if he sufficiently 'complis mentis' to realise that he needs one, and has the funds to pay one??!

Post by **wazza** » February 7, 2009, 4:14 pm

Val

It seems that your the one who is sensitive to what you have posted and the replies that some others have posted, not me. I have merely stated that you have placed yourself in a situation that could cause you some comprimising issues at a later date should the person challenge what was said at interview.

I have already agreed that people need correct representation by approved legal authorities, such as the Embassy etc... when they are in need and yes we all need to show compassion, but we also need to know when it stops and my basic training clearly identifies this.

As to your request for me to be guarantor for him , Why ?? I dont know this person, he is not in my group of friends within Udon or Thailand.

Post by **bigwavedave** » February 7, 2009, 4:51 pm

The man said"mare die lao" Thats a fact???
i see where wazza is coming from and really Val he is merely offering friendly advise to you. as it seems to me anyway you have not thought through the legalities of your good samaritan thing,i was at the hospital with the director of the hospital in a meeting, i was asked to go and speak to him so he could at least hear a farang voice, but he had already been taken by the BIB...
To be brutally honest unless you have millions i would suggest there is no good you can do for him, only support her familly as best you can.....And pray his legal team should he get one doesnt kick your ass up and down the court room for assuming to know what you are doing here!!!!

Post by **trubrit** » February 7, 2009, 5:01 pm

arjay wrote:Val, Presumably the police will have, or will be, considering the possibility that a third party may have been involved, e.g. someone could have entered the bedroom with the intention of killing either or both of them?

It sounds like the Embassy does not provide the 'accused' with a lawyer, but will assist him in finding one, if he sufficiently 'complis mentis' to realise that he needs one, and has the funds to pay one??!

In answer to the first part. The evidence I have seen definitely seems to exclude a third party, and the police are certainly not counting this as a possibility. But then. Who am I to know? As no doubt others will be quick to point out.
It is being treated as an initially domestic dispute, involving jealousy, that escalated to violence which became extreme. As to the lawyer. You are correct. They will help you to find one, experienced in the type of crime, and who is English speaking, but will not assist financially unless a guarantor comes along who promises to reimburse them.Doesn't seem likely in this case. It might be of interest to know that during my discussions this morning, the same criteria applies to giving medical assistance to British citizens in an emergency. If you don't have sufficient insurance cover or ready funds available to cover the cost, the embassy will sanction the treatment but only after receiving a guarantee from someone of receiving reimbursement.Maybe that should serve as a heads up to some.
They do however send a consular officer to assess the situation in both instances. As happened here.

Post by **trubrit** » February 7, 2009, 5:07 pm

bigwavedave wrote:The man said"mare die lao" Thats a fact???
i see where wazza is coming from and really Val he is merely offering friendly advise to you. as it seems to me anyway you have not thought through the legalities of your good samaritan thing,i was at the hospital with the director of the hospital in a meeting, i was asked to go and speak to him so he could at least hear a farang voice, but he had already been taken by the BIB...
To be brutally honest unless you have millions i would suggest there is no good you can do for him, only support her familly as best you can.....And pray his legal team should he get one doesnt kick your ass up and down the court room for assuming to know what you are doing here!!!!

Thank you for your concern Dave. I am however in the fortunate position of being able to afford the best lawyer or medical treatment that I may need.

Post by **Astana** » February 7, 2009, 5:16 pm

Perhaps it might be better in light of the ongoing matter to temporarily lock the thread as simply put the basic elements of criminal defense and prosecutorial procedure in Thailand and western common law jurisdictions although similar are in procedure at court variable to say the least.

It is important to have an expert in criminal law to assist you with an impending case and it would be good judgment not to prejudice in any way a case that is clearly a highly emotive and might become somewhat protracted due to it's amplification by parties directly and indirectly involved.

Post by **trubrit** » February 7, 2009, 5:21 pm

Astana wrote:Perhaps it might be better in light of the ongoing matter to temporarily lock the thread as simply put the basic elements of criminal defense and prosecutorial procedure in Thailand and western common law jurisdictions although similar are in procedure at court variable to say the least.

It is important to have an expert in criminal law to assist you with an impending case and it would be good judgment not to prejudice in any way a case that is clearly a highly emotive and might become somewhat protracted due to it's amplification by parties directly and indirectly involved.

I would just like to mention nothing has been revealed on here that hasn't been openly published in the Thai popular press. Along with some things that are assumptions or rumours that are not substantiated.

Post by **bigwavedave** » February 7, 2009, 5:30 pm

Astana wrote:Perhaps it might be better in light of the ongoing matter to temporarily lock the thread as simply put the basic elements of criminal defense and prosecutorial procedure in Thailand and western common law jurisdictions although similar are in procedure at court variable to say the least.

It is important to have an expert in criminal law to assist you with an impending case and it would be good judgment not to prejudice in any way a case that is clearly a highly emotive and might become somewhat protracted due to it's amplification by parties directly and indirectly involved.

Why, are we not entitled to talk to each other on here about current matters affecting us??? is lee going to have to appear in court with the transcript of this topic or something????? i have been pointed enough times to the forum rules and this is fine as far as i am aware, so why lock it??? in no way is it possible on this planet to pejudice his case on here!!! Unless of course you can prove prejudice and then that opens another can of worms as i am currently posting in an internet shop it will be pretty difficult to prove i am writing this right now!!!

Oh my god ive just implicated myself in this !!!! No i didint write this OK??? it is somebody else and you cant prove its me !!!!!

and as i loeave this computer i WILL be wiping my fingerprints off the keyboard....Doh!!! The mouse!!! Doh!!! the seat.....

Post by **Astana** » February 7, 2009, 5:34 pm

Maybe

Post by **Khun Paul** » February 9, 2009, 7:39 am

It seems that through all this rubbish quoted by many as to what anyone should or should not have done, we are all failing to see a point here, the only apparant survivor of an altercation is being charged with murder, not withstanding that this person is obviously has a in severe physical problem and the fact that he was interviewed by the police whilst still not compo mentis .
So what have a we got the Police being heavy handed, the British embassy failing to take care as befits a british national, ensuring his human rights would not I fewel be expensive, ( just advise the police of basic rights.
We have good samaritan who is attempting to inform us all, and we attack him.

WHAT IASK WOULD THE POLICE HAVE DONE IF THE FARANG HAD DIED, that gentlemen is the question and one the police ought to be asked.

Is this man capable of inflicting such injuries?
Did anyone hear the altercation?

Are we so comatose that we allow this possible travesty of justice to go unanswered ?

Where is the man now in prison or at home, if in prison he wont last long, if at home at least he will have some quality of life?

Gentlemen please we should be concerned not having a go at anyone else, as for lawyer fees, well I will be the first to offer a small amount, if we all did we could help him maybe...
What say you all.....Lee would you like to manage this? or am I being hopeful that we all have a spark of humanity left .

PS i am going away for four days Viusa run bangkok, so I will incommunicado until I return, so if anyone wihes to poo poo this idea do it quick while I am not here.lol

Englishman accused of killing Thai wife.

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