Thai versus farang Education systems

[laphanphon]

i learned more at the school library reading Life and National Geographic magazines. luckily attended a very good school, but basically, they taught the basics, unless in votech, and learning a trade.

at graduation, either college, or they have prepared you to fill out an job application, that's about it.

[Techland]

I have only a small personal experience with the thai school system from elder children in the family finishing Udon university, and smaller children just starting.

The university education seems so sub-standard that I have to go into the cellar to see something. They leave school to begin work and have no clue of anything - compared to german standards.

My impression on both Kindergarten and beginning of school is that it is much much harder than in Germany. They have learned to read and write thai already before school, and continue with complicated things that in Germany they would be taught after 2 or 3 years. On the other hand they do not get the chance to learn smoothly and to develop their personality, it seems.

And obviously, with first classes filled with up to 40 children, some will just be left behind and never get a second chance...

[jetdoc]

Unless there is a way to evaluate the issue cost vs. results this thread is a no brainer. One poster mentioned private schools here are very expensive but the reality is compared to the US they are very cheap. What I found interesting during the time my son was attending schools in Hawaii, was that the Asian children were always at the top of the academic achievement list. A lot of folks equate education with intelligence but I think they are distinctly different allowing for the fact they go hand and hand. Superior intelligence in and of itself won't insure academic achievement. My feeling is that the Asian children for whatever reason had the desire/motivation to learn, which in and of itself tends to equate to academic achievement.

[rick]

As this thread was separated from the falangland thread, some comments are hard to backtrack; but at least remembered my own! Well, at least De Nuit read mine and agreed and poked fun at students geographical knowledge!

I wonder how much is spent on education in Thailand. Obviously they cannot spend as much as in the west, education is like healthcare, eats money. But i do get the impression it is not to bad, given the issues it has to face. Nearly everyone under the age of 30 speaks some english; In Bangkok even more widely spoken. Teachers seem to be fairly well paid (many have cars, new homes, laptops etc.). Those teachers i have met do seem to be reasonably ambitious and always want to improve there english. I have met a few university graduates, and they were not stupid. If you want the best education, taking your children to your home country or maybe Bangkok would be better. But i think you could still get a fair education here, around Udon. If inadequate, top up with some home tutoring. Most of the Udon graduates i have met had rice farming parents - they have come a long way. The situation in Udon is probably about like europe say 50-80 years ago. As the educated lower middle class grows, it will feedback on the education system. In 50 years, i expect there will be little to choose between Thailand and the west.

[Khun Paul]

Ah the Education system a subject I do know a bit about, but before I wax lyrical, may I point out that generally over all the world education standards are falling and it is even in English Universities to fail students, oh yea some fail, but many who 10 years ago would not gain their degree do!
Now cominmg back to the original post the Thai education system is system and that is all it is. It is a system designed to push students through form P1 to M6 with the least complications, as there are no parent teacher co-ordination and what seems to be a complete lack of student personal assessment, some students who are poor or even dyslexic are left behind and stand no hope of ever recovering.
Their general knowlkedge is poor, but some of their sciences are ok but not good.
I had a freind who was asked to teach science ( being a Phd he said he would pop in to see the school' no names). so he sat through one or two lessons and then asked the director when he would like him to teach the teachers, needless to say that was not the purpose of his visit, but I think that says it all.
It has also been muted that a Thai degree could be the same as an old 'A' level. certainly vast sums of money are spent by parents on degrees from a myriad of Universities , for reasons beyond my ken.
Oh true some Uni's and students excell, but you normally find those that do have the chance to broaden their knowledge by at least visiting overseas or even studying for a short time overseas. Home grown excellence is rare.
Korea for example quadrupled its education budget some years ago and now it is paying dividends, Thai's seem unable to grasp the simple fact, that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, but equally true is the fact that the system is a bureaucratic nightmare, having just seen teachers pulling out their hair trying to get all their forms correct in order to remain employed, supplying info which was supplied the year before and the year before that.
No wonder there is no incentive and as for the students they know that failing is not allowed by the Education system so the students lack ever more incentive, this is strange as when you talk to the older teachers, you could fail 15 yrs ago, but now with the system so dumbed down to turn it around is a monumental task.
Those farangs that do teach here do try in a small way to change the system but bascially it is like having 11 holes in a dam with only 10 fingers you are fighting a losing battle albeit slowly.

[rick]

Khun Paul, I must bow to your superior knowledge; must admit have not been IN a school in Thailand, so maybe any success is in spite of the system.

I would agree about educational standards in the UK. In the 70's, with 10% going to University, you only needed about C + 2 D's at A level to do science at a typical university, and could get in with just 2 'A' levels. Now with around 30% going to University, you need a B + 2 C's typically. Forget Oxbridge without the 3 A's. Has academic attainment improved so much? of course not, they still cannot do simple mental arithmetic without resorting to a calculator. I wonder what i would score if i did my exams today (if i still had the brain of an 18 year old!).

[Marmite The Dog]

.
Korea for example quadrupled its education budget some years ago and now it is paying dividends, Thai's seem unable to grasp the simple fact, that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, but equally true is the fact that the system is a bureaucratic nightmare, having just seen teachers pulling out their hair trying to get all their forms correct in order to remain employed, supplying info which was supplied the year before and the year before that.

But the Korean education system is still a 'rote' learning experience and the emphasis is heavily biased to maths & the sciences. Korean kids fail miserably in the humanities and arts when compared with 'western' students, and they still have no idea how to think and create.

[Michael C]

Stan, my apologies, after your comments on the ‘Isaan Education Centre’ and the thread that started this discussion, I wrongly had attributed other critical posts concerning the education and intelligence of Thais to you. If I have any criticism, it is on two close to what you have. Thai education is based on memorisation and not independent thinking (this does not mean they are less intelligent/educated), but this appears to be a problem throughout eastern Asia, as I have heard similar complaints from university professors in the US with their eastern Asian students; asking and discussing go into the previous problem of independent thought, but it is also engrained into their mind at a young age that the teacher is never to be questioned. I do disagree with you about a lack parent-teacher interaction; not only was it very important in the school that I was at, but the parents of all Thais that I know are very well informed about their children’s performance in schools whenever there appear to be problems. I am rather surprised that no one brought up the “no fail” policy.

LA, those test scores are bad as a percentage, but since this shows no comparison between what Thais scored and what students from other countries scored, there is really nothing to show. If scores were somehow compared to how students in other countries scored, it would have at least a little bit of significance; as shown, it has absolutely no significance. The survey and questions on the National Geographic survey were so straight forward (if you bothered looking at the link) there is no way someone could get the meaning incorrect! Concerning literacy, the average American has only a level of 8 years of education in reading comprehension, compared to the 12 years of compulsory that they receive. Source: US Department of Defense (used for setting up courses of instruction for the military).

As a final note for you LA, I had a rather large number of students that were overseas as foreign exchange students. Those that were in the US talked about how easy their school in the US was compared to their school here in Thailand. Those of mine that went to schools in continental Europe (Germany, Belgium, Hungary), made no such comments.

Jetdoc, you are correct in superior intelligence not equating to academic achievement. It is not difficult to pick out numerous examples of people that were genius level and did not excel in academic achievement.

The schools here in Isaan, as I mentioned in an earlier post, are certainly not as good as those in and in the vicinity of Bangkok, but to generalise that Thais are somehow so much more uneducated or so much less intelligent, especially when so many on this forum appear to have such little command of their own native language, is without foundation. It is probably the greatest criticism of this forum as well as the general expat population here in Thailand that I have: thinking they are so vastly superior to the Thais. Does this come about through their own educational inadequacies? I would love to see these same expats explain concepts of philosophy, advanced mathematics and sciences in the Thai language for a valid comparison! How many of these expats even understand enough Thai to understand these topics explained in Thai, yet alone, being able to explain them???

[rufus]

I have not taught in US schools; however I have taght in Thai schools, German schools and Aust. schools. Here is my take on the situation:
The subject content of Thai schools is reasonable; the delivery for the most part is poor. Thai teachers have a "stand and deliver" approach which is very old fashioned. It does not sit well with modern theories of learning.

As far as Americans and their knowledge of the world - yes, SOME of the kids, (and adults), from the US I talk to are woefully ignorant of Georaphy and History. However so are many Thai and Aussie kids. To be honest, it is symptiomatic of youth today. A number of Aussie kids I taught did not know when WW2 started. One or two had never heard of Hitler. I don't think such ignorance is endemic to Americans alone.

German schools were more rigorous in their subject matter. I have also NEVER taught kids who were better informed than German kids - environmentally, politically, geographically and technically.

[BobHelm]

Teacher training is controlled by the State.
The curriculum in public schools is controlled by the State (maybe this is more subtle in some countries than others, but is still true).
The emphasis & methods public education systems employ and the results that it therefore produces is exactly the one that the State wishes it to.
If this is "better" in Asian countries than Western ones is immaterial - it is undoubtedly different because of different cultures & aims.
Would a child from Asia benefit from some time in a Western education system, or visa versa??? If they could adapt I think the answer is undoubtedly YES but I feel this has as much to do cultural reasons as educational ones.
Would it benefit a child from Asia to be totally educated in the West (or visa versa)??? I think that depends where they intend to work. I would imagine that a totally Western educated Asian young adult would have great difficulties "fitting in" to an Asian working environment & the other way around as well.
At it's worst the Asian education system is 'fact retention without learning or comprehending".
At its worst the Western education system is little better than protective custody.

The bright & intelligent will shine through under any system - especially if they have parents who understand the importance of education & are willing to sacrifice to provide it.

[JimboPSM]

It is certainly common for wealthy Thai families in Bangkok to send their children to good private schools, mainly in the UK, USA or Australia, for their secondary education.

One of the primary aims of this is to dramatically improve their English skills which are seen as vital for a successful business career.

I'm not sure how common this is outside of Bangkok, but I do know one Thai family in Udon (with no other western family links) who have a son at a “public” school in the UK.

[Thaitanium]

[Jagrunner]

What is the best private school in the Udon Thani area? I have heard it is Don Bosco located near Nong Sim park, but would like some confirmation from the forum.

[Khun Paul]

It is probably the greatest criticism of this forum as well as the general expat population here in Thailand that I have: thinking they are so vastly superior to the Thais. Does this come about through their own educational inadequacies?

I do take issue at this remark, I am not and many of us feel the same way, we are not educationally inmadequate, for from it many of us have qualifactions that are the same if not better than many thias.
We could not explain anything in Thai because we are not fluent in that language, and we do not pretend to be, however the Thais seem to think that they have such a superb command oif the English language that they can teach it to a level that is accepted by world, sadly that is NOT TRUE, I have in my six years here net a very few Thais who have a good command of the Englsih language and those that do normally have had some years learning in a foreign University.
So before you wax lyrical upon the negative attitude of farang perception of Thais in general , it would be good to reflect upon your own educational system and what you achieved before speaking about others in such a degrogatory way.
As for our command of English on these posts, i was not brought up with the ease of computors so i learnt ona typewriter, knowing I can correct without having to retype the whole thing is wonderful, but occasionally I forget so do many others, I have been speaking the Queens English for a good many years now and my command of thsi language is very good.

[jackspratt]

I do take issue at this remark, I am not and many of us feel the same way, we are not educationally inmadequate, for from it many of us have qualifactions that are the same if not better than many thias.

If this is an example of very good command of the Queen's English, god help us

[laphanphon]

he did say he forgets or neglects, as i do, to hit that spellchecker every once in a while

if typing skills are as good as mine, in deep trouble. as you notice, i edit quite often, if lucky enough to notice a mistake of english or thoughts.

[Michael C]

Khun Paul, thank you for proving my point:

I do take issue at (with) this remark, I am not and many of us feel the same way, we are not educationally inmadequate (inadequate), for from it many of us have qualifactions (qualifications) that are the same if not better than many thias (Thais).
We could not explain anything in Thai because we are not fluent in that language, and we do not pretend to be, however (lacking punctuation or misplacement) the Thais seem to think that they have such a superb command oif (of) the English language that they can teach it to a level that is accepted by world, sadly that is NOT TRUE, I have in my six years here net (met) a (singular article for a plural noun?) very few Thais who have a good command of the Englsih (English) language and those that do normally have had some years learning in a foreign University.
So before you wax lyrical upon the negative attitude of farang perception of Thais in general , it would be good to reflect upon your own educational system and what you achieved before speaking about others in such a degrogatory (derogatory) way.
As for our command of English on these posts, i (I) was not brought up with the ease of computors (computers) so i (I) learnt (learned) ona (on a) typewriter, knowing I can correct without having to retype the whole thing is wonderful, but occasionally I forget so do many others, I have been speaking the Queens (Queen’s) English for a good many years now and my command of thsi (this) language is very good.

Now for addressing your points:

I do take issue at (with) this remark, I am not and many of us feel the same way, we are not educationally inmadequate (inadequate), for from it many of us have qualifactions (qualifications) that are the same if not better than many thias (Thais).

You may not have noticed, but it was not a remark, it was a question. That is what the (?) is for. It was a question as to why someone would denigrate an entire country like that concerning their intelligence and education, bringing up the question: “Does this come about through their own educational inadequacies?” I certainly have never heard such comments coming from the many distinguished visiting academics that I have met in Thailand.

We could not explain anything in Thai because we are not fluent in that language, and we do not pretend to be, however the Thais seem to think that they have such a superb command oif (of) the English language that they can teach it to a level that is accepted by world, sadly that is NOT TRUE

First of all, if one does not have a fluency in Thai, what are they basing the perception of the Thais’ education, intelligence or knowledge of philosophical concepts, advanced mathematics and science from? The comment made by me was to have the members that are critical on this forum to look at a counter example, in order to look at themselves, since very few members (low single digit number?) of this forum would be able to do the same in Thai. Your second point of this statement is untrue; not only does Thailand’s own educational regulations call for native English speakers to assist in the national education of English, showing your statement to be untrue at a national level, but from the academics up through the university systems, none that I have ever met have claimed that the Thais' command of the English language is at a world class level. To the contrary, all of the high level academics that I associate with lament that the command of the English language must be improved.

it would be good to reflect upon your own educational system and what you achieved before speaking about others in such a degrogatory (derogatory) way.

That is exactly what I did. I was educated in the US and pointed out the inadequacies of the American school system, which are many at the primary and secondary level.

No need to address the last paragraph, you made the point for me; although, the first personal computers did not come into common usage until about 1980. I would think that very few on this forum where brought up with computers and even fewer were brought up with their modern ability to improve their writing (unless we have forum members in their young 20s).

My remarks, specifically on the remark that you quoted, are directed to the general population of expats here in Thailand, certainly not all of them. There are a great many expats that feel no need to denigrate Thais’ intelligence or education in order feel better.

[Aardvark]

=D> =D> =D> =D>

[Laan Yaa Mo]

MC is correct about the Thai government trying to upgrade the system of English taught in this country.

Personally, a Udonthani member of the Education Ministry asked me to help devise new tests (five parts) for early high school students. It was a matter of coming up with questions based on fairly simple readings. In total, there were around twenty readings for which they asked me to provide both the questions and answers. Some were of the multiple choice variety, some were the short answer type, and others were more detailed.

The lady who asked me to do this volunteer work was an Inspector, who went around to various schools in Thailand to report on the schools, teachers and administrators and their willingness to be part of a new, and improved, English education system.

Many of the inadequacies MC noted about the education system in the United States can be applied to Canada and England too.

The other comments MC made seem on the money.

To be vigilant about the education system no matter where one lives is a good thing.

[Khun Paul]

Your second point of this statement is untrue; not only does Thailand’s own educational regulations call for native English speakers to assist in the national education of English

That is as maybe, however there is still a complete lack of integrated policy in that area to the extent that schools can no longer charge if they do want to, for the extra staff. IF the Educational policy was FULLY implemented, then the schools would be given the money to recruit Native Speakers, sadly that is not the case, hence my comments.
As for improvement, it needs only a stroke of a pen to raiuse the standards by making benchmarks that students must attain to be allowed to register for a English based University course, instead of paying thousands to learn it when they get there. This would be putting hundreds of self centered Thai schools to close as they would no longer be required to teach Englsih as the students woyuld learn it at school.
I say self centered, having used for children 3/4 Thai schools in Udon ( correction ) paid for their use by the wifes children, their knowledge decreased not increased, you cannot teach english in Thai, canada found that out that is why they use the duakl language system some years in English some in French.

But I do not suspect it will change in my life time which is rather sad really as the children are keen to learn but are not given any incentive to.