Venomous Snakes of Udon Thani

[Benzman]

fond this one more time

[Brian Davis]

Just interested.

At a garden centre other day, came across an attractive, bright green snake with quite distinctive pattern, killed by the owners. It had apparently been found the night before on the roof of the premises, during heavy rain.

I estimate it about 1 meter + long, the larger, viper-type head (they are bigger, aren’t they?) and the ‘burnt’tail, which my wife suggested was dangerous, as opposed to those without the 'burnt' bit.

With reference to the Siaminfo site and the photo there, it appears to match the Ttimeresurus Hageni and my wife was certainly referring to it as a ngoo kee-oh hahng mai (green snake, burnt tail).

The fact my wife 'recognised' it quickly suggested that it wasn’t an uncommon snake up this way, but Siaminfo suggests it’s ONLY present in southern provinces. So maybe my id mistaken?

[Michael C]

Brian, the snake that you saw was most likely Trimeresurus (Cryptelytrops) albolabris (White-lipped Pit Viper/งูเขียวหางไม้ท้องเหลือง), if it had the 'burnt tail' (reddish colouration on the tail). If it was a more greyish colouration on the tail, it would be Trimeresurus (Viridovipera) gumprechti (Gumprecht's Pit Viper/งูเขียวไผ่). I would bet Trimeresurus (Cryptelytrops) albolabris, since it had a pattern, which occurs with some forms of that species over its rather large geographical distribution. The closest that Trimeresurus (Parias) hageni (Hagen's Green Pit Viper/งูเขียวหางไม้ฮาเจน) comes to us is Surat Thani, south of the Isthmus of Kra in peninsular Thailand.

Here is a snake that appeared so much like Trimeresurus (Parias) hageni, that I initially misidentified it:

It is actually Trimeresurus (Popeia) fucatus, a type of Pope's Pit Viper that lives in sympatry with Trimeresurus (Parias) hageni. This one was from Nakhon Si Thammarat.

Although the bite of Trimeresurus (Cryptelytrops) albolabris would be very painful, its bite rarely results in death. I have come across a number of Thais that did not even seek medical attention for their bite, although I would definitely suggest going to the hospital for treatment- I would definitely seek medical attention for myself.

[Brian Davis]

Thanks for your response Michael. Excellent reply, as usual. I wish I had such vast knowledge about, well, ANYTHING really!

My wife and I have both looked at available photos of the different snakes and remain adamant it was most like the
Hagen's Green Pit Viper because of the reddish tail, distinctive pattern and green all over. Perhaps a rogue visitor, jumping on a truck from down south? My wife didn't think it had a yellow belly, which I believe would be a characteristic of the White-lipped Pit Viper - ngoo kee-oh hang mei tawng leu-ung - green snake, burnt tail, yellow stomach? But I appreciate how easy to get this particular sub-family confused.
Interesting, for me, anyway.

One way or another, if it had still been alive, I would have given it a wide berth!

Is it fair to say that vipers, in general, can be identified by their seemingly distinctive, broader heads?

I don't worry greatly about it, but as someone who spends most of his time 'in the sticks' , slight concern in the event of getting bitten, to identify the correct snake for treatment purposes.

[saint]

i would like to thank micheal c for all the imput hes made to this thread . ive certaintly not only found it fascinating but very informative . the other day were walking the dogs , about 25 metres in front of us a snake crosses the concrete road going from one bit of scrubland to another . she says look snake , i says not just snake , thats a individual cobra , as i could clearly see the white bands on a blueish grey body , about 3 metres long . was she impressed or what

[Fawn]

Did the dogs go after it?

[saint]

Did the dogs go after it?

no

[Michael C]

Brian, no need on being able to identify the specific species of green pit viper. They make a polyvalent antivenin that treats all of them equally well; their venoms are quite similar. Some of the green pit vipers are so similar that they are split as species because of molecular (mDNA) evidence or hemipenes morphology; unless you know where they were from, an external examination would be useless in those cases. In the last picture that I posted, my identification was corrected by one of the world's leading authorities on vipers- no explanation on how he could tell other than having examined hundreds of specimens.

Speaking of green pit vipers, my wife had heard about a woman in the Udon Thani area that was bitten recently while collecting grasshoppers at night time. I do not have any further information on the incident.

Saint, thanks for your kind words. Where exactly did you find an individual cobra?

[747man]

Did the dogs go after it?

no

Very WISE Dogs,Saint

[Fawn]

Some doggies go for snakes, some become a snake's lunch.

[saint]

micheal , saw it about 100 metres north of nong ta , the village is called kham kling . not the first ive seen here . when we cleared the land , the dozer driver found one on my land , which at the time was a little worrying as earlier that day , i had been roaming around , pacing out the plot in my flip flops both times it has been nearly dusk . also noticed several scorpions dead on the same piece of road yesturday , my guess is they were migrating to slightly higher ground , and became R T A s . my dogs are not that smart , they just never caught sight of it , i only saw it for about 10 seconds or so myself . had other snakes in the garden before and they think , its some sort of play thing .

[saint]

sorry , make that south of nong ta , not north . not been up long and lost my bearings believe it or not , i studied as a navigation officer .

[jackspratt]

sorry , make that south of nong ta , not north . not been up long and lost my bearings ............

Is that bearings, or marbles

[saint]

sorry , make that south of nong ta , not north . not been up long and lost my bearings ............

Is that bearings, or marbles

now , now jack , play nice or you may get sent to bed early without any tea !!!!!!!

[Brian Davis]

Brian, no need on being able to identify the specific species of green pit viper. They make a polyvalent antivenin that treats all of them equally well; their venoms are quite similar.....

Sorry if this is already covered elsewhere. Can I just clarify? Whilst you indicate there is an antivenin which would treat all green pit vipers (ALL vipers?), am I correct in believing it is important to identify the correct species of snake, if bitten and requiring treatment? e.g. a cobra, as opposed to a viper. I'm told that locals will try to kill the snake and take it to the hospital for identification and the correct treatment.

Following on to that, and this might be of interest/importance to anyone, are you aware of the procedure taken in hospitals IF the victim has no idea of the type of snake? In spite of your excellent guidance, in a sudden incident, I for one couldn't be certain of naming the correct snake, or catching/killing it! Is there a 'general' anti-venin, or are you likely to be a pin-cushion as injections to cover all types are given?

I was close to stepping on a small snake only today, which looked innocent but .......

Thanks.

[saint]

very good question , even a chart picturing the various snakes , at the hospital , im guessing would help . i dont think your likely to forget what a snake thats just bitten you looks like .

[laphanphon]

There are three distinct types of venom that act on the body differently.

* Hemotoxic venoms act on the heart and cardiovascular system.
* Neurotoxic venom acts on the nervous system and brain.
* Cytotoxic venom has a localized action at the site of the bite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_venom

i thought there was only 2, though the last one doesn't appear to be a worry.

by the time you get to the hospital, unless living close by, hopefully not, but you should be feeling the symptoms, if not just a warning snap at you, especially if neurotoxic, so may not need the snake. not sure about here, but one of the rattlers in states has a very nasty bite, mixture of venon, and very complicated to administer anti venon. the learning channel is great.

my best guess anyway.

oh, if you get a really good bite from a sea snake while diving, no worries, just keep the insurance paid, as you'll probably be dead before you hit the surface.

[Michael C]

Brian, sorry for the long delay in response, I have been in the field and on the go over most of the past two weeks. To answer your question, no, that polyvalent antivenin is not used best to treat all vipers; it is only best used to treat our green pit vipers that we have here, those of the Trimeresurus complex, because they are so closely related. It is specifically produced from Trimeresurus (Cryptelytrops) albolabris. This does not work with equal efficiency for Calloselasma rhodostoma (Malayan Pit Viper), Daboia russelii (Russell’s Viper) or any other viper of a different, more distantly related clade. For Calloselasma rhodostoma and Daboia russellii there are different antivenins that are produced. If you are bitten by some other rare viper, such as Ovophis monticola, they would probably treat you with the antivenin from the more closely related Trimeresurus Complex antivenin.

If bitten and the snake cannot be identified, the hospital will not be experimenting (or should not be experimenting) with different types of antivenin. The most deadly of Thailand’s venomous snakes are rather distinct and easily identifiable, such as the different types of truly dangerous vipers (Daboia russelii and Calloselasma rhodostoma), cobras and kraits. In the case where the venom is taking serious effect and the snake was not properly identified, they are likely to administer a polyvalent antivenin for the general group of snakes, which is not as effective as a monovalent antivenin (produced for a specific species), except in the case that I gave earlier- snakes that belong to the same closely related clade.

Here are the antivenins produced here in Thailand (Queen Saovabha Memorial Institute):
Trimeresurus (Cryptelytrops) albolabris: for green tree vipers
Calloselasma rhodostoma: for Malayan pit viper
Daboia russelii: for Russell’s viper
Bungarus fasciatus: for kraits
Ophiophagus hannah: for individual cobra
Naja kaouthia: for cobras and spitting cobras

LA, whoever wrote that Wikipedia page appears to have a rather poor knowledge of snake venom. Something that should stand out is the page is very poorly sourced with references. Reptile venoms are a highly technical and complex subject and as reference we see only one technical article consisting of one page concerning the effects. The header at the top says it all: “This article is in need of attention from an expert on the subject.”

One problem with simply categorising reptile venoms is that venom is very complex and rarely can be placed completely into a single category, e.g. monocle cobra venom is categorised as a neurotoxin, when it also causes localised tissue damage (which would also categorise it as a hemotoxin). The snake that you referred to in the US is Crotalus scutulatus (Mojave Rattlesnake). What makes this snake dangerous, besides having complex venom with more effects of a neurotoxin, is that its venom is distinct enough from the other members of its genus that the polyvalent used for the genus is not as effective with this species.

Cytotoxicity is not a major effect of any snake venom that I am aware of and such an effect would be the result of necrosis brought about by a strong hemotoxin’s effect, such as localised tissue damage resulting in necrosis. This is something that better describes the effect of a spider bite, like that of the ‘Brown Recluse’.

There are other categories of venom that one could list. One could have been venoms that cause a systemic or anaphylactoid reaction. Many snakes, to include those that most consider non-venomous have been found to have the ability to cause this reaction, which ranges from localised swelling at the bite area to shutting down of the respiratory system; the latter is seen only with more dangerous rear-fanged snakes. This is how one would simply describe the effect of bee venom, a venom that kills more 3-4 times more people in the US than all the different US snake bites combined. Snake venom, like that of Rhabdophis subminiatus have a venom that overwhelm the body with a toxin that destroys the kidneys, leading to renal failure- not sure how that would be categorised simply into one of the existing pigeon holes.

There is no snake that is going to rapidly kill you in a matter of seconds or even a minute; that is a myth. Someone could go into shock from fear, but then that would not be from the venom. I have been on a great many dives following sea snakes in the Pacific and Indian Ocean to watch their behaviour at close quarters and never had one act aggressively. The only bites that I know of are from people grabbing them or after they have been caught up in fishing nets. A great many people have survived a number of bites from the most venomous snakes, such as Bryan Fry. Speaking of Bryan, he has quite an informative website on venom: http://www.venomdoc.com/index.html Look at the left column to learn about different topics. He has also made most of his publications available on the website. Unfortunately, much of what is on his website requires a good understanding of biochemistry.

There is more wrong information spread about sea snakes than just about any other type of snake. One 'fact' that is constantly repeated is that sea snakes have small fangs, so small that they have to bite you between the fingertips. Not sure where this one started from but its completely wrong. A little lucid thought should be enough to reveal this. Think about it for a minute, what do they feed on? Fish and eels. Which have tougher skin, us or fish and eels? Fish and eels of course. So, a sea snake has no problem getting through our skin. Indeed, the Stoke's sea snake can have fangs almost a centimeter long! Another wrong 'fact' constantly battered around is that sea snakes have tiny venom yields. The Stoke's is another good example of how wrong this is, they can deliver up to 150 milligrams! The most widely spread yet utterly incorrect statement is that sea snake venoms are vastly more toxic than land snake venoms. While sea snake venoms are certainly highly toxic, both the Inland taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus) and Eastern brown snake (Pseudonaja textiles) are more toxic than the most toxic sea snake (the Dubois' sea snake, Aipysurus duboisii).

[laphanphon]

i agree, rather generic info from that wiki page. as i saw a documentary one time, about a snake bite along mexican border of a rattler, and was amazed at the complexity of treating, as you mentioned, various aspects of the bite and complex venon was involved. extremely interesting and scary at the same time, as snakes are on the top of my list of things i fear. even knowing the chance of getting bit are rare, especially since i avoid their habitat as much as possible, except for that huge tail i saw slithering in the brush couple weeks ago, at the house, i feel safe.

continue on, your expertise is appreciated, i'll stick to taking pics of lizards when out and about, from my veranda at hotel.

[polehawk]

Still, some good info in that wiki link. Damn cobras that can spit in your eye from 4 to 8 feet away. For once in my life I'm glad to be wearing specs or, in my case, prescription sunglasses.

Michael C, if the family pooch gets bitten by a poisonous snake will any of the antivenins work for them? If so, wonder if there is anyplace close that might be willing to use their antivenins for an animal? Guessing that the veterinary hospital in Khon Kaen might be too far away to save the dog.