House made of steel...some assembly required.

[PeterBlythe]

Contrary to my previous advice Rod, the walls shown are actually the exterior walls, not the interior walls.

The walls need to be remade with the studs directly under the trusses. The weight of the roof with tiles on requires the load to go driectly through the wall studs. Loonglee, you are indeed correct.

Cheers
Pete

[LoongLee]

Thanks Pete,,,, I guess it's true what they say, "even a blind squirrel can find a nut in the forest some days"

[Farang1]

Contrary to my previous advice Rod, the walls shown are actually the exterior walls, not the interior walls.

The walls need to be remade with the studs directly under the trusses. The weight of the roof with tiles on requires the load to go driectly through the wall studs. Loonglee, you are indeed correct.

Cheers
Pete

Pete, you may have seen photos of the exterior walls that I haven't. The photos I posted that my wife took, are a little close for me to be sure. But, knowing my floor plan and watching it being assembled, "Probalem3" could be an exterior wall. The other 2 photos are interior walls. I have not seen any other pics of it. I cc'd you with all my corespondence with Viwat. Other than the drawing, I have not heard from him. The walls need to be remade and replaced.

This is a result of using one program to design the walls and another to design the trusses, never the 2 shall meet.

My wife tells me there is another house going up that is made of light gauge steel like ours. She going to take some photos so I can see.

[NOLA]

Farang1,
Where is this new house your wife makes reference to...NOLA

[Farang1]

My wife says it is on the west side of town. She is going over to take a look and get some pics, Saturday. Her cousin told her about it. Cousin's husband is the general contractor that is doing our house...the non-frame part. I am planning on taking a look see when I get into town in Oct.

[Farang1]

Well, here is where we stand so far.

I dug out my contract with the guy in BKK. (Sent him a copy in case he had lost his.) It states that the walls and trusses are to be engineered and designed using the Framecad Pro program. Then, would be produced with Framecad's Framemaster machine. That not being done constituted a breach of contract. Either replace the entire frame with what I had ordered or, give me ALL my money back.

All my correspondence with him was cc'd to the Framecad regional sales manager. He had told me that, they would do what they could to help get things straightened out.

All things considered, I am still in a "wait and see" mode but, I got an email from the supplier a couple days ago said they are ordering a new frame to replace the one they assemble on my floor. That means, they will have to remove the roof, disassemble the frame, assemble the new frame and load the roofing back on. He is eating a big one one this project.

The guy in BKK had told me he had bought a machine and was setting it up in Thailand. If that be true and has it set up, he could make the frame here and save himself a sizable chunk of change. But, the manufacturer in Indonesia is also at fault. But, that is for them to work out.

My wife said, he had told her, this was the largest house he had built. He had built 4 other houses in Thailand but, they were just small bungalows. Flaws in the framing are less detectable in a small house, I guess.

[LoongLee]

Farang1,,,,,, sounds like you're at that point where you've turned on the light and all the roaches start scrambling to get out of sight. And they would probably do that in the states also. However I would think that all the parties concerned (not you) should have insurance for exactly this situation and the "hit" should be negligible on them, just their insurance. They should be made to understand the importance of getting one of their first projects right and that impact on their reputation and future success in Thailand. Would it be reasonable to let them know you had secured an attorney to protect your interest?

Best of luck,,, LL

[aznyron]

I avoided posting on this thread I just wanted to monitor it but as a former carpenter do not panic it can be fixed you need to jack up the roof and put in a header (lintel) it called also which will support the roof and you can continue with your metal studs underneath my one question to you is why in the hell you went down that road we only use metal studs in the USA for party walls not curtain wall where it has to support a roof also if they put in the post properly you would have not had that problem just like my house I have 4" super block it does not support any thing my concrete post carry the entire roof structure. I do agree with L.L post but getting attorney here would only be a waste of your money he will take it and do NOTHING your best bet would be to get some one to install some steel headers under the roof and weld them to steel post solve your problem and the cost would be no more than the attorneys fee and go after them with publicity and news paper reports like Lee said they are roaches running for cover now that they know they did not qualify to do the job only wanted the money

[laphanphon]

i hope you included a link to this thread to them, so they can see the interest it has generated. many still need and want houses built and are not happy with the standard thai way of building, and hoping for little more high tech designs for the right price.

hope they realize future sales may result, or not, depending how they handle your building project. as many have visited the site, including myself and have an interest in the final project, cost, and possibly some more business coming their way, but since new, a waiting, watchful eye on how things turn out here.

maybe if a few of us send them emails, and express our thought of this project vs future sales may help them decide on a patch, or honoring their original design and contract.

good luck, keep us posted.

[aznyron]

http://www.octoberhome.com/articles/adj ... olumn.html

[aznyron]

http://www.octoberhome.com/articles/adj ... olumn.html

[fatbob]

To Farang 1.

The Framecad system is the same system that has been used in Australia for the last thirty years. External or load bearing walls are steel framed, under the light frame code the studs(verticles) are directly under the trusses transferring the load to the floor, if not directly under the stud (verticle) a double or heavier top plate is required. The trusses are to be supported on external walls only, not internal walls, normally the internal walls are 35mm lower than the load bearing external walls, internal walls are fixed to trusses with a L bracket that allows movement on the verticle as load is applied. Under no circumstances are trusses to be supported internally, the webbing in a truss becomes useless if the design is altered and load is applied in locations other than the design. If internal support is required then the roof plan should be designed and built the traditional way.

I have thirty plus years in construction with twelve years building in Asia, if you need any advice would be happy to help.

Cheers...

[Galee]

http://www.octoberhome.com/articles/adj ... olumn.html

Ahh, known to me as the good old "aqua prop". Very useful tool to lift a heavy object temporarily.
I use to use them to help maneuver large racks of telephone exchange equipment into place.

[Farang1]

They should be made to understand the importance of getting one of their first projects right and that impact on their reputation and future success in Thailand. Would it be reasonable to let them know you had secured an attorney to protect your interest?

Yes sir, LL, we have made it clear that there are many watching this project. Their reputation, not only on how they get the job done but, how they deal with problems. I had sent them the link to the thread so they can see what is being said, when I 1st started the thread. Although, we had talked to an attorney back when we were having delivery problems, we hadn't paid a retainer. I agree with Ron that, bad publicity would be more effective in Thailand than their civil legal system.

I avoided posting on this thread I just wanted to monitor it but as a former carpenter do not panic it can be fixed

my one question to you is why in the hell you went down that road we only use metal studs in the USA for party walls not curtain wall where it has to support a roof also if they put in the post properly you would have not had that problem

I'm not panicking......yet. I know things can be fixed. The reason I chose this steel system was because, the whole thing just snaps and screws together. My kids could do it. It is also quick....well, when they make it correctly. The problem I am having is because the frame manufacturer (in Indonesia) used one program to design the walls and their own profile for the trusses. I am told that is their standard procedure in Indonesia. But, as pointed out, the studs aren't placed under the trusses to take the weight. Their 1st idea to fix it was, to make wall panels that was engineered correctly and place it next to the bad walls. Being the writer of the checks, I found that solution unacceptable.

When I pointed out the contract breach, and I think Peter Blythe may have had some influence also, they let me know they would replace the whole frame. There is a plus side to ths. Aussieboy had mentioned that we need a flim between the metal and the concrete to prevent reaction between the 2 and having the frame rust out from the house. This will afford us the opportunity to put the film in place.

I am giving the framer the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he is trying to cheat anyone. He invested $500k USD to bring in a machine because he believes, as we do, that the steel framing is the future. This is part of the growing pains of starting something different. (I would have bought the machine if I had the money.)

I gave my father-in-law license to pick out some trees to plant in our yard. He got 14 trees of assorted varieties and is suppose to plant them this weekend. In a few years, we should have that much sought after shade.

[LoongLee]

They are definitely getting some visibility with this issue. Over 4200 views and 113 posts on this thread. I'm sure a certain percentage of those are possible customers so it's in their best interest to make it right and move on, otherwise their future isn't necessarily dead but could be seriously damaged.

[AussieBoy]

Nothing wrong with the Engineered Frame Tec system design, but the input into the design will cause problems.

First input for a roof frame design
Roof pitch less than 35 deg ok continue with standard computer design

2 roof type, metal 5 kg a mt2 or the 60kg mt2 concrete/ terracotta / clay
Of course no Thai person would try to cheat the system and say metal roof will do?
But put on a concrete tile roof, as there are less trusses to make and less material used less bracing less tie down, No sir we thailanders never cut corners.

Now we have a 200mt2 roof with a metal sheet design roof truss carrying 200x 5kg= 1000kg dead weight roof load

Or we have a 200mt2 roof carrying at 60kg mt2 concrete tile = 12,000kg or 12 tonnes
Let me see if you get the picture 12 tonnes sitting above your head, or 1 tonne

Now what design did they choose for the truss loading?
Lets all pray to Buddha to sent a 100kph wind to your job site very soon, before you start the lining to test the roof loading, and we will continue with the truss design

3
Wind loading in OZ N1 N2 N3 N4, old system w33, w41, w50, w60, and the mother of all W70+thats meters per second rating or simple for you to understand 120kph 150kph 185kph 225kph wind speed loading, for Udon you would use the 150/ open space flat terrain category nothing to slow the wind down, no other homes trees hills, but this is Thailand so they will pick the lowest rating 120kph, I used the N3/ 185kph for my truss design using timber.

Now we have 12 tonnes of roof let’s say 25deg pitch wind loading N1/120kph

4 truss loading internal select material type/ ok we go for the steel battens at 450mm centres

5 Material used/ we go for the plasterboard 10mm sheet to ceiling at 10kg a mt2, not the 3mm ply wood at 2.5 kgmt2
That adds 2000kg or 2 tonnes to the truss loading
Concrete tile total weight with ceiling battens and plaster sheet= 14 tonnes
Metal roof sheet with same ceiling = 3 tonnes

Can you start to see the difference between tiles concrete roof and a metal roof design?

Now while you are having a sleep at night, will you be worried if the roof has been designed correctly
14 tonnes or 3 tonnes sitting dead weight above your head, constantly pushing down on the studs and stressing the trusses, no problems I trust the designer? Not finished yet there's more loading to do, more weight more stress
6 we did select the 120kph wind design, in case you are not sure ask the designer what wind loading they used, so here is the final run to the finish just press the computer design button which says design this truss
and off they go, the silicon chips are a buzz with computations, roof pitch x by wind speed x by roof material, concrete tiles at 60kg a mt2, x by ceiling type plasterboard x by battens spacing loading, x by terrain category x by shielding terrain, x by frequency of return, beep beep beep beep beep beep

(Please answer question seven) you forgot to answer Q7 ok let’s go to q7

Q7 cyclone/ hurricane area design return period, no we are not in a cyclone area, so the design will not have to allow for a stronger frame, more frequency of loading, which means less yearly wind frame movement pressure.
And the chips are off and racing again, here it comes

tr=rfx25x60x1.5x1.2x0.9x10/100mt2= 1.8v loading
That’s good now we have 1/2 roof load under compression of 1.8 at 120kph at 25 deg pitch= 12.6 tonnes pushing down on one side of the roof in worst case scenario, that’s one half of the roof

Shall we add the rain factor? no thanks, this is Thailand and we do things cheap

the other half will be like a aircraft wing, same same as the Earth no gravity, it sucks, Uplift, if the tiles are tied down correctly the wind will try to lift the tiles , which will try to lift the battens which will try to lift the truss which will try to lift the top plate which will try to lift the wall frame which will try to lift the bolts holding the frame, which will try to lift the concrete slab, so as you can see there are many design needed to hold in place a good roof, not just the trusses.

But back to the trusses, one side will be under compression from the wind and the other side will be negative pressure of about 2.5 tonnes. dived by 100mt2 roof = 25kg a mt2 up lift, we had 60kg mt2 just for the tiles so now we got less 25kg, no problem on the down wind side, but you must design the truss for all directions

As you can see the tie down in classed as Nominal for a concrete tile roof, but for the metal roof you can see the roof will start to life off, as the roof weights less than the uplift force, so you would need more tie down to hold a metal roof in place, as by my home photos you will see all the tie down rods straps bolts and plywood I used.

These are real loadings with rain that’s 13tonnes pushing down on one side of your roof in a 120kph rain storm, with 7 tonnes on the other side, 20 tonnes in total, that’s 100kg for every mt2 of roof area, now the computer ask for truss spacing, for less deflection 600mm is used or 900mm and a lot of extra truss bracing and bigger roof battens are used, start to under stand roof loadings now, hope this helps

Now if the trusses are at 1 mt centres and the rafter length is 5 mt that’s 500kg loading as UDL, uniform distributed loading x 2 sides that’s 1 tonne loading on each truss, if the trusses are all ready bending, just weight, pun used (wait) for the wind and rain load, hope you have had plenty of that lately.

Get it wrong and that's how people die.

Top plates are generally called Top Hats that are thicker metal 1.2mm /or deeper section 75 wide 65mm deep to carry the truss load so as not to bend the top plate

The Master Mr Kally

[aznyron]

with all these mathematical formula's and all the engineering comes down to one simple answer
the curtain walls most support the roof load. With Thai building is the columns support the roof load
why all the engineering when I served my first year apprentice ship I knew that. another thing is if you want a span more than 4 meters they put in a column which is not necessary all they have to do is go to the next size steel plate. all of my house framing was with lumber 2X6 curtain walls for the R.factor of insulation.
which gave you R. 19 as 2X4 only gave you R. 11. I also cut stack my roofs today they use trusses
I also used steel fish plates between my long span headers today they use glue lamb same results cheaper material engineered to meet specification give me the old way. I did a job for a N.Y City detective his
neighbor was Engineer and after I finished the Engineer said why I put that column there to support a
header my reply was I am no engineer so I want to make sure it does not fall down and kill any one
so if your going to use metal studs you better have a header going from one column to another and you also better diagonally brace all 4 walls tying in the header with the shoe plate

[AussieBoy]

The Sermon of Notes of Understanding

Mathew 21:7 If the truss spacing is increased, the loading on each truss is also increased, hence more deflection, more load on the top plate hence a stronger top plate required , and a stronger truss design.

Mark 14:5 With the increased truss spacing you will need bigger roof battens and bigger ceiling battens, the deflection ratio for OZ is set by law or standards,

Jude 2:9 Does Thailand have such standard to cover the home owner HO's ? more deflection more movement more cracks, HO's in the west dont want cracks, so less deflection will be required

Will you be fitting plaster board to the ceiling, if so make sure they backblock the plaster, it reduces the cracking, by strengthing the back of the plaster sheets
http://www.awci.org.au/cgi-bin/page.cgi?id=156

Any finally Safety, did you allow for safety guards when they installed the roof.

Here 's what Moses said
Deuteronomy 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence

That was some 3000 years ago, if in Moses time safety rules, But this is Thailand and life is cheap

If they get the system right it will be a good growth area for thailand building, allowing for a light fast building method, which should allow for different materials to be used , rather than the old cement and motar brick method.

The Master Steel framer
AussieBoy

[parrot]

Nice cool day for everyone to go up in the attic and check their roof support system. Then come back downstairs and hit the bottle, because I dare say there's not a Thai around who's going to do (or know how to do) the calculations that AussieBoy shows. And even if the contractor can do the calculations, you've got to worry about everyone taking his share of the fixin's when it's time to buy materials...and then worry about whether the guy welding the support structure together was hitting the lao kao the night before (or worse, for breakfast).

After reading AussieBoy's assessment, I don't feel so bad paying a small amount for house insurance each year.

[aznyron]

parrot is all copy & paste from Architectural standards book they want to show every one how smart they are LOL with all those mathematical formulas the joke is they can wipe there azz with them because no one uses them myself included I knew what to buy and how to space my studs and what size headers are need for any span I was a structural carpenter as well as a house framer now I am to old to do the labor
and I sure do miss it. I supervised my house in the village when I was having it built I check them for plumb level & square and called them on it when it wasn't