Sin Sod, marry in udon

[KHONDAHM]

This entire confused thread is exactly the reason for my argument/suggestion to change the paradigm and think of sinsod the way one thinks of an engagement ring. One can do a search on the word "sinsod" in all the posts above and replace it with "wedding ring" or "engagement ring" and darn near every post would still hold true as it relates back to our native countries' marriage customs.

When you do that, a lot of sinsod naysayers "sound" quite silly, don't they. Marry in your own country without a ring? Absurd! (catching on to my argument, yet?)

So, to eliminate all the confusion in your head, just think of sinsod as one would an engagement or wedding ring. Keeping in mind that such rings ARE NOT part of Thai tradition and ARE NOT required for a marriage ceremony. The ring thing is coming from YOUR customs, not hers. Eliminate the ring, and replace it with sinsod. How confusing is that???

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Sin soht is not the same as giving someone an engagement ring and a marriage ring. However the comparision is fair enough if it helps people understand the custom here.

Part of the problem is that sin soht is not practiced by everyone in Isaan the same way. This leads to confusion. Some families demand it, others do not, some families will return the sin soht amount to the groom the next day.

This is different from giving an engagement/wedding ring in the west. I doubt that many brides return the ring after the engagement/wedding party, or many ladies engaged to be married tell their future husband not to bother with rings unless they are in dire financial need.

Some posters have said that sin soht is adopted from the dowry system in China. However, there are differences between the Chinese dowry system and sin soht leading one to believe that the Lao/Isaan people and the northern Thais have evolved their own custom in this regard.

I am ambivalent about giving any sin soht if my very close friend ever consents to going to the amphoe muang with me. This is not because she has been married before and has a child. I know Thai men who have married single parents and given sin soht. There was one lady in the rice-farming village where I lived near Chiang Mai who was married for the fifth time when I was present. It is my understanding that she received sin soht from her Thai husband each time. Her name was 'Gum', which means gold in both northern Thai and Cantonese. The reason that I am ambivalent about paying sin soht is that I have bought enough shoes, dogs, clothing and handbags already to match a sin soht price; therefore, enough is enough, fair is fair, and all that. Let's see if I get away with it if the day ever arrives when we march off hand-in-hand to the amphoe office.

[KHONDAHM]

If one can look past the sentimentality of a ring (for EXAMPLE, just the raw cash value of it), there really is not much difference. Western culture converts cash to a sentimental ring. Thailand doesn't bother with the conversion.

The practice of requiring sin sot is as universal within Thailand as requiring a ring is universal within falangland. Most people do it, but not everyone.

I would argue that the explanations offered for sin sot, when trying to explain the custom to a falang is different. The reasons I have heard run the gamut. When one speaks with Thais in Thai and asks "Why do you pay sin sot for your wife?", one quickly understands that they do not really have a cogent explanation for it - it just is the way it is (the very definition of 'tradition', I suppose). Likewise in falangland, if asked "Why do you have to pay money for a ring?" - the explanation is not very cogent either. If one answers "Because I love her, to show my love for her, etc.", then the Devil's Advocate can retort "Bull_S, you are paying for her, or bribing her, etc." when really, it's for the same in-cogent (new word?) reasons as sin sot.

I would also argue to the naysayers, that if sin sot really was "to pay for her education, rearing, etc.", then every Mom would be running a ledger to ensure that their true costs are all covered. Such a reason is ridiculous under scrutiny, BUT it is accepted as a convenient and palatable way to explain sin sot to falangs.

The same argument you (or anyone, for that matter) make: "I have bought enough shoes, dogs, clothing and handbags already" can be said for anyone who has dated/courted prior to marriage in falangland. Do not be surprised if your ambivalent attitude returns the same result/response as it would to a woman in falangland were you to take the same position. "I do not feel I should give you a ring because 'I have bought enough shoes, dogs, clothing and handbags already'". Good luck with that.

Really, it's either straight cash (Thai way) or it's converted cash with sentimentality attached (falang way). The only thing different is the paradigm. I would also argue that most falangs, despite their worldliness, are TERRIBLE at getting over the paradigm hump.

Just my song-baht.

Cheers!

[Texpat]

Do western women surrender their wedding rings to their parents?
And the guy gets one too. My wedding ring cost more than my wife's. Together, they were a small fraction of what some people here are asked in sin sod.
Flimsy comparison.

[LoveDaBlues]

Bought my Thai wife a diamond wedding ring. Later, I got her another diamond ring that went well with the first. Also got for her: 1 gold necklace (2 baht) and 1 gold braclet (2 baht). She still has all her jewelry.

I have many falang friends with Thai wives. All the wives still have their wedding rings.

Guess we all got lucky and landed the right lady.

[KHONDAHM]

Do western women surrender their wedding rings to their parents?
And the guy gets one too. My wedding ring cost more than my wife's. Together, they were a small fraction of what some people here are asked in sin sod.
Flimsy comparison.

I would also argue that most falangs, despite their worldliness, are TERRIBLE at getting over the paradigm hump.

Cheers!

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Yes, you are correct, I could never get away with that argument; and I would never attempt it other than in a joking way. But even 'phut len' (joke) and acting 'talok' about sin soht could land me in a heap of trouble. 55555

[Mr Natural]

All this talk about Sin Sod, what about the Tong Mun (gift of 24 karat gold jewelry)?
If you are getting married by the numbers Thai style you are suppose to give Tong Mun to your bride to be at the engagement party. I would consider this the equivlaent of the falang tradition of giving a ring.
Sin Sod is what it is. A gift of cash to the parents!

[LoveDaBlues]

Sin soht is not the same as giving someone an engagement ring and a marriage ring. However the comparision is fair enough if it helps people understand the custom here.

Part of the problem is that sin soht is not practiced by everyone in Isaan the same way. This leads to confusion. Some families demand it, others do not, some families will return the sin soht amount to the groom the next day.

This is different from giving an engagement/wedding ring in the west. I doubt that many brides return the ring after the engagement/wedding party, or many ladies engaged to be married tell their future husband not to bother with rings unless they are in dire financial need.

Some posters have said that sin soht is adopted from the dowry system in China. However, there are differences between the Chinese dowry system and sin soht leading one to believe that the Lao/Isaan people and the northern Thais have evolved their own custom in this regard.

I am ambivalent about giving any sin soht if my very close friend ever consents to going to the amphoe muang with me. This is not because she has been married before and has a child. I know Thai men who have married single parents and given sin soht. There was one lady in the rice-farming village where I lived near Chiang Mai who was married for the fifth time when I was present. It is my understanding that she received sin soht from her Thai husband each time. Her name was 'Gum', which means gold in both northern Thai and Cantonese. The reason that I am ambivalent about paying sin soht is that I have bought enough shoes, dogs, clothing and handbags already to match a sin soht price; therefore, enough is enough, fair is fair, and all that. Let's see if I get away with it if the day ever arrives when we march off hand-in-hand to the amphoe office.

Exactly. It happens. For someone to suggest that only virgins receive sinsod from Thai men is....well......just plain incorrect.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Furthermore...I would not say that sin soht is just a monetary gift to the parents.

The parents of my very good friend are both dead; however, she does have four older sisters.

In other words, I do not think anything is written in stone on sin soht. It is like a living organism that can evolve into anything over time.

[Mr Natural]

How much Dowry do I have to pay for my Thai fiancee?

One aspect of the Thai dowry system that has been met with much speculation is the price range to be paid upon marriage. Most Westerners are met with some confusion when the concept of Sin Sod is discussed.

The price of dowry to be paid for your Thai bride is based on a combination of her social status, educational attainment, occupation, family background, and all other related aspects of her upbringing. Therefore, you should expect a higher dowry to be paid when you're marrying a university-educated Thai lady from a middle-class family, most especially if she is still a virgin at the time of your wedding. In these cases the average dowry price is expected to be set at 100,000- 300,000 baht.

On the other hand, Thai dowry prices would be significantly lower if you are marrying a Thai lady from a humble background and living on modest means. A lot of foreigners usually encounter a case wherein their fiancée asks for a ridiculously high price of up to a million baht for dowry even though she has not finished school or has previous experience working as a bargirl. This is one common scenario, but one has to keep in mind that if your bride-to-be is not a virgin anymore, comes from a low-income family, has a child from a previous relationship, or has already married previously, then she doesn't really deserve to be paid dowry anymore.

Pasted from <http://www.siam-legal.com/Thailand_Serv ... -dowry.php>

[Texpat]

If it's my money, I decide. End of story.

Feel free to buy your wife if that's what floats your boat. I didn't.

Where I'm from it's customary for the bride's family to foot the bill of the wedding party. I didn't hold them to that either.

[MALC]

i have never paid it in uk. i married my thai wife no sin sod no money sent over ever. she came to uk and worked in a factory. treat em mean keep em kean.

[LoveDaBlues]

If it's my money, I decide. End of story.

Feel free to buy your wife if that's what floats your boat. I didn't.

Where I'm from it's customary for the bride's family to foot the bill of the wedding party. I didn't hold them to that either.

Exactly. Some decide to pay; some don't. It's up to the individual.

Some folks equate paying sinsod with buying a wife. That's their opinion.

Some folks don't equate paying sinsod with buying a wife. That's their opinion.

It's great when individuals can take different paths regarding the same issue and both be happy!

[homer]

homer - I think you're viewing my post as a sort of "rebuttal" on this sinsod issue. That's not my intent; I'm only showing there are many different opinions and experiences which can make this issue a bit complex.

I don't believe in any "guidelines" when it comes to the issure of sinsod. What I do believe is that each case is unique as each individual is unique. I believe the more real-life experiences one has can better help him shape an opinion of what he should/shouldn't pay with regard to sinsod.

I didn't pay sinsod nor was it ever requested by my wife or her parents. Their only request was that I take care of their daughter. Any monies I have spent on the wife and inlaws have been done freely. No arm twisting involved. I'm just happy I can provide them a better life. Having said I didn't personally pay sinsod doesn't mean I'm against it. I think it's appropriate in certain cases; with each situation being unique.

I'm well past the sinsod stage. You can only decide what's best for you based on all the different inputs and your own mind/heart. I hope the decision you make proves to be the correct one.

I'm planning on spending the rest of my days here. Things haven't always been rosy in my 4.5 years here. However, on balance it's been better than the USA. Once the house is finished and a few other things fall into place I think I'll be quite content; but none of us has a crystal ball do we?

Blue, please don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to be facetious when I was referring to your first-hand experience re: Sin Sod. You've been living in LOS for close to 5 yrs. while I have been spending about 3 months a year in Thailand for the last 12 years. I was merely saying that you've had opportunities to view these things first-hand while I have relied on what I could only assume to be reliable sources. Until recently, on this thread, I'd never heard of a Thai man paying Sin Sod for a woman who had been previously married. I stand corrected. However, what I would like to point out is, in Maaka's case, the woman/family were asking for 600,000 bht. while the wedding you attended in Loei, the Thai man paid 60,000 bht. The disparity between the two Sin Sod's is tenfold and that's what irks me. I think it's less about the us/them mindset of the falang and more about Thai price vs Falang price once again. Other than from a woman that my lady barely knows, who threw out the number of 1,000,000 bht.(ridiculous ) nothing has been mentioned so far and I hope [-o< it doesn't, but I guess time will tell.

[maaka]

Yup I have come across a bar girl type woman asking 1,000,000 baht, and a 18yrs old country virgin whos mama was asking 300,000, plus the divorce mum with 3 kids asking 600,000..yet what my thai friends tell me, 100,000 is quite adequate, max even, and a considerable amount of that 100,000 will go to the monks who attend your wedding, if the family are strick buddhists, and you get married at the local temple.

some are abusing the tradition wholesale, some are not..the divorced women with the 3 kids said ' you pay big now ( 600,000) and mama and papa not come back and ask for more later '...thai men dont generally have oddles of money, so their price is much lower anyway..

to me I look at sin sod as a tradition, but having said that, one must barter with papa if sin sod is asked for, that is tradition also..there can be many angles that come into it, tradition, money offerings to buddha / monks, woman's status in the community, face saving amongst other thai friends and family, etc etc...its up to you what you think is fair, and appropriate, weighted up against what future care you will provide for your asian beauty..its a clash of cultures..I told my ex that in my country the wifes family paid for everything about wedding..ohhhhhhh..in thailand it is the husbands family....one should be able to find a compromise somewhere if one elects to pay sin sod.....just my humble opinion tempered with guidance from my thai friends and my knowledge of buddhist culture..

[MALC]

really sin sod should be paid to us falangs. as 99 PERcent dont have nowt. when they have us. they have everything, just my thought.

[BKKSTAN]

Sin sod came up for discussion ,again,last night at the NM get together.Consensus was that everyone is different ,including the families and the falangs relationship with them.So it is an individual decision for each relationship!
IMO,many Thai families that are genuinely concerned about the longterm success of their daughter being married to a falang,with all the cultural differences that present problems,want to insure their daughters future as she gives up her youthful beauty.Who can blame them for asking for large sin sod and holding on to it?Except to another falang,her marriage opportunities are severely limited after this marriage!

In other cases,it is strictly greed,whether by design or instilled by comparison to other falang marriage situatons around them and it could be in combination with making face!Whatever it is,it is part of the individual falang/Thai relationship at the moment!

My wife had been married before and 10K sin sod was paid.Her parents being dead when we met,there was never a discussion about sin sod only immediate testing requests for borrowing money from brothers and sisters!

I would not have paid a sin sod request at the time,nor was I willing to pay a monthly payment to my wife as it made me feel like I was buying her,which would not have worked for me personally,but does work for others,so I think it is right for them!!

Trust,honesty and partnership was my position.Things that had to be tested ,developed and nurtured over time before I was willing to be in a large financial loss position.Until then she would have to trust me about our commitment,the same as I was trusting her.

It worked for us,10 years later she has complete access to all assets in Thailand and is assured that those in America are hers also!

Our type of relationship might not work for others,so who are we to say what is right for them!

By the way,I would like 2 M sin sod for my daughter,to be invested and held in trust until some confidence was achieved about her relationship being fair and equitable over time.But who knows what will be the situation at the time.The last decision will be hers and maybe she will decide to risk it all for no sin sod

[KHONDAHM]

By the way,I would like 2 M sin sod for my daughter,to be invested and held in trust until some confidence was achieved about her relationship being fair and equitable over time.But who knows what will be the situation at the time.The last decision will be hers and maybe she will decide to risk it all for no sin sod

Now this is an interesting thought. Should I require sin sod for my little girl when she grows up? Being a "shotgun daddy", my inclination is to give the wanna-be groom a really hard time , make him think he has to dig deep, then tell him not to worry about it. No way would I demand money from my future son-in-law. Just wouldn't ever sit right with me on many levels. If he sticks around after I put him through the wringer, then I would be convinced that he is good enough for my daughter. He's gotta prove he has love, fidelity, common sense, ambition, book knowledge, enough life knowledge, means of adequate support, and some semblance of a well thought-out life plan after marriage. That's all I will care about when that time comes.

But, since we are raising her to be independent-minded and opinionated, I just asked her what she thinks. Her 8 yr old response?:

"Pop, you crazy? I don't want to marry anybody. We have to stay together forever. Me, you, and Mom. Oui!"

Gotta love her.

[Texpat]

Who gets the dough when lesbians marry?