Clueless Land Office Clerks

[KHONDAHM]

So, the wife and I were in the land office recently to get the forms to put our to-be-built house in my name and record an usufruct. BUT the clerk refused saying I had to live in country for 5 consecutive years before I could own the house my money is constructing on my wife's land.

Now, of course I know that to be BS, but here we go again having to deal with yet another clerk enforcing their idea of what the law says. Yes, of course we will get past this and there is no urgency, but it is rather frustrating (TIT) having to encounter bureaucratic incompetence so frequently.

Just a rant/vent session.

http://www.thailawonline.com/en/propert ... n-thailand

http://www.chiangmailaw.com/housebuying.htm

[nkstan]

This is such a consistent complaint here in Thailand.I was wondering if anyone experiencing this bureaucratic problems,has had any success asking to speak to the supervisor of the partcular dept.

I understand that ''face'' is involved here and I have no success to report in similar situations over the years,but the truth is that I stopped asking to talk to the boss many years ago,which was probably cowardly or laziness on my part,as I look at it now(tired of hassles ,I guess,which is not a good reason,IMO).

I used to ask my wife to ask which was like asking her to kill,by her look and initial reactions,so I gave that up too!

[jackspratt]

As with most other things when dealing with petty bureaucrats in Thailand, I am sure KD's predicament has been set up to be easily overcome, by the supply of a couple of brownish coloured notes bearing a portrait of HM. :-"

[UdonExpat]

I agree with Jack. The situation needs some oil. Clerks often remember how to open the doors once the hinges are oiled.

[KHONDAHM]

While "we foreigners" tend to think that paying up a few bucks is the easy way to solve problems, it is often the worse thing you could do if the law is, in fact, on your side. Tea money creates the expectation that more tea money may be forthcoming which then keeps the cycle going and creates more "problems that must be overcome" down the road - people talk. NEVER pay tea money if the law is on your side as the situation can and will be resolved by this person calling that person and informing them (or reminding them, as the case may be) of what the law actually is supposed to be.

Supervisors in government are usually the ones who trained the clerk and they are often on the same page (this was the case in both of our recent encounters). In addition, they work in the same office day after day and it is unlikely one would contradict the other lest they cause embarrassment. The clerk embarrassed because he/she was wrong or "forgot", and the supervisor embarrassed because apparently, they didn't know the law either or trained the clerk wrong. Now, this dynamic may be a bit different in private industry (merit motivation) as opposed to governement (entitlement de-motivation) - depends on the company.

Now, grease money (paying to speed things up) is another thing altogether, and I am all for it.

Yep, we have the law on our side and will simply have someone give them a call.

[trubrit]

NEVER pay tea money if the law is on your side as the situation can and will be resolved by this person calling that person and informing them (or reminding them, as the case may be) of what the law actually is supposed to be.




Yep, we have the law on our side and will simply have someone give them a call.

I suppose the above attitude is okay if you are more intent on teaching them how to do their job rather than accomplishing what you set out to do .Priorities comes to mind .For info: The back handers are normally pooled in the office and shared out a couple of times a month depending on seniority, amongst everyone . You could say the supervisor had a vested interest in not helping you . :-" Its interesting to note that most Thais accept this practise, possibly seeing it as another form of taxation.Wonder why some farang want to live here but cannot accept, what is after all , a long established practise .

[UdonExpat]

Not only is it a long established practice, it's necessary for the government to function. No one could afford to keep their government job without the supplimental income from tea money.

[Texpat]

No one could afford to keep their government job without the supplimental income from tea money.

Most Thais are in the habit of understating their salaries. I believe they usually make significantly more they they admit. Often in the form of housing/food/transportation allowances. Besides, government employees aren't required to deliver. They don't have to make sales or attract business or keep customers happy every day or face failure.

I agree with KD, don't pay bribes. If it's important, find another way to get it done. Don't become complicit in their criminal games and don't perpetuate the system.

Why don't our Thai wives throw out the bullsh!t flag more often? Mine is petrified to challenge anybody in a government or quasi-government office.

[KHONDAHM]

My wife used to be the typical timid type, but that change after seeing me in action both here and in the States. After awhile we agreed that I handle the BS in the States to get things done, and she does the same here in Thailand. She recognized after awhile that people here WILL frock you over and do it with a smile if you don't establish yourself as the either the Big Dog or the little but Loud Dog upfront.

Don't get me wrong...she is an angel in every sense of the word and folks are instantly comfortable with here from the outset - a gift she has, but what she learned from me WILL come out if it must. I think she taps the innate mother/wife as protector emotion and rides it out. You should see hiso Bangkokonians turn into wai-ing fools when she gets her groove on. It's sooooo entertaining.

[nkstan]

Your lucky KD,after 10 years,my wife still is intimidated by those with authority.She has finally gotten used to my not stopping at obvious ''money stops''.But,she still hates to ask questions!

[arjay]

It can be very helpful if you can find a Thai legal consultant or similar who knows what's what. Agreed that will cost you a bit more, but such people can often put the petty bureaucrats right, or indeed avoid them even trying it on in the first place.

I used a Thai lawyer a couple of years back to assist me with a complex Land Department transaction, and whilst he was with me, we also went to Immigration about a related matter. He had both lots of officials "eating out of his hand", so to speak.

I more recently used a Legal consultant on another Land Dept matter, (a transfer of land subject to an existing lease) and again all went smoothly, despite initially being told that what I understood to be feasible and the lease stated was feasible, was not possible!!

[KHONDAHM]

That's not bad advice, Arjay. In my case, I've used Thai lawyers in the past with various results. I've found that if one has no problem with paying a lawyer THB XX,000 to shuffle paperwork which has a filing fee of THB 20 (in the case of a land transfer), things usually go ok. But when shot hits the fan, as in they actually have to assert your rights and go for the jugular on your behalf, they wimp out. I've used ordinary people for ordinary things (like filling out forms) ever since with no problems (usually). The clerks I've been dealing with lately are not in Udon proper offices where I imagine they are better trained. I can confirm that these clerks are not putting up barriers, they truly don't have a clue.

[Bandung_Dero]

It's all well and good to take the high road with Khondahm and his lawyers but I'll stick to the tea money line and get the problem sorted as quick as possible. Worked for me in the past and will work again! I'll have to admit that in one case my tea money would have kept the whole office fed and watered for weeks! BUT worth it.

[Texpat]

Tea money? You mean bribes, right?

[trubrit]

Tea money? You mean bribes, right?

I prefer the term"sweeteners". A little sugar goes a long way .

[oangh]

Clueless or clever?
I do not know which law give you the right to own a house??
The Condo act says you can own 49% of the estate.
What about a mobile home??
And 5555 to you!!

[jackspratt]

Clueless or clever?
I do not know which law give you the right to own a house??
The Condo act says you can own 49% of the estate.
What about a mobile home??
And 5555 to you!!

Do you know of a law that says he can't own a house?

Where has he said anything about a condo, or an estate for that matter?

555

[nkstan]

I believe that many Thais think of us falang that object to ''backhanders''as truly Kee-nee-ow.Especially when they have accepted it as a way of life!Even the poorest Thai that can't participate,seems to accept this!

As TB says,it is their way of life.Some more influential Thais don't have to pay money,but there is hope that favor from their influence and power will be in play!Falangs have NO power,nor influence,so cash is the only medium sought!Unfortunately many falangs feel they are being unfairly picked upon,which isn't necessarily the case!

I agree,it is a matter of priorities in one's life,whether to pay or offer to pay!For instance,it has been my experience that those wanting to take their partner to falangland and are willing to pay the extra fees through agents,have success,while those that don't get a hit and miss situation.

Therefore,if I wanted to take my family to America,I would pay EXTRA to insure the process.It is apparent that ''agents'' have in-place backhanders to deal with!Have your ever been waiting in line at someplace like Bangkok Immigration,when an agent appears with several peoples passports and they get processed ahead of you?

I can still enjoy living here,not paying extra fees,In most cases,as I only have a few priorities that might demand a payment,school fees come to mind even though,in thisparticular school, they are free to most!

[oangh]

Clueless or clever?quote]

Do you know of a law that says he can't own a house?

Where has he said anything about a condo, or an estate for that matter?

555

Jack is right . I dont no any law about that, and I dont know how to registre a house in the LAND office!

[parrot]

"Therefore,if I wanted to take my family to America,I would pay EXTRA to insure the process.It is apparent that ''agents'' have in-place backhanders to deal with!Have your ever been waiting in line at someplace like Bangkok Immigration,when an agent appears with several peoples passports and they get processed ahead of you?"

I think what the backhanders offer is checking that you've dotted your i's and crossed your t's. I'd be very surprised if any of them are allowed into the embassy to hold your hand through the process or advance your position in line (although they certainly do so in Thai offices).

There are countless foreigners in town who do their visas, licenses, 30 year leases, yellow books, vehicle purchases etc without incident. I'm not discounting there's a clueless land office clerk lurking out there, but maybe the right questions weren't asked or the right information given. (I've seen one of the long-time immigration officers, now working at Udon, get wound up about something or another....giving the impression that the visa wasn't going to be issued. The customer held his breath, the immigration officer settled down, and the visa was issued.) Maybe it was just a bad-hair day at the land office.