Deaths in Bangkok

[jackspratt]

Well it seems the ---- is starting to hit the fan now - a number of deaths reported from both the army and the red shirts.

I guess you can only push for so long, and then those with the bigger sticks are going to push back. Reports I have read say the live fire and molotov cocktails/grenades initially came from the red side.

Other reports say the army is now seeking a truce, and for things to settle down, but the hard-core reds are saying no (Arisman having declared "war").

Let's hope some sanity prevails overnight.

[Texpat]

Let's hope democracy becomes more than a catch phrase and elections are held.

[rick]

There does seem to be some big differences in the way the conflict is being reported; the bangkok post is definitely a shade of yellow. Watched Aljazeera an hour ago who have reporters on the ground, witness reports and interviewed spokespersons for both sides. Some Army were using live ammo, little doubt about that. But redshirts are not shifting, have indeed taken soldiers prisoner. But many soldiers are reluctant to seriously fight what are basically likely to be there own families.

Currently quiet, Sunday morning, but redshirts now want immediate resignation from Abhisit. Today, make or break. Also trouble reported in Chiang Mai and Udon

[Laan Yaa Mo]

The Nation, I think, is owned and operated by PAD people.

This is really a sad situation.

The army has been remarkably calm and restrained. What does it mean?

[Aardvark]

I don't think they really want to fight the protesters as most of them come from poor farming communities themselves. It was interesting that when they went into the TV station yesterday to evict the Reds, some of them gave up their Automatic Weapons quite freely as though they wanted them to be able to defend themselves. There was a lot of Hand shaking when the Army pulled out which I have never seen before, although it didn't stop the Blood shed at the end of the day. It's also interesting to note that the Troops in Bkk were recruited from the Southern Provinces so there was no conflict of interest, but now people from Bkk and it's surrounds are joining in which might make the Soldiers a bit edgy. Let's hope Governments from around the World have a say and the Violence can stop.

[maaka]

A month ago I said the sh-- would hit the fan, and regrettably it has, and I dont think it will stop until the army / govt has taken full control, and the red shirts have given up and gone home..I see on one side the army /govt seeing itself as the democratically elected members in parliament, and on the other hand, a group of poor farmers wishing they had Taksin back..the govt got alot of egg on its face, and did look abit of a wuss when the reds took over the new bangkok airport awhile back, and caused untold distruption to local and international travellers and cost the country a small fortune..I could not see the powers that be let that happen again, and hence now to the current situation..

I dont think the troops want to fight poor peaceable farmers, but the troops are mere minions, and I cant see the generals/ govt wanting to look fools a second time around....the hand had to come down real hard, if one wanted to stay in power, and now that it has I can t see them letting it off until the dust has truely settled..

I wouldnt hold out much hope about other countries wading in and the thai taking much notice..The UN waded in over the Cambodian temple affair and the Thais told them where to go..

[old-timer]

and did look abit of a wuss when the reds took over the new bangkok airport awhile back, and caused untold distruption to local and international travellers and cost the country a small fortune.

I thought it was the yellows that did that ?

OT....

[jackspratt]

It was.

Thai history is not really maaka's strong suite.

[Bandung_Dero]

Well, IMO a lot of expat Farang here that should keep their ill informed opinions to themselves. There is garbage written all over the Thai forums showing just what a pack of ignorant people we (including me) are. Until you know the FACTS both real and political just stand back and keep a low profile, even profit out of it if your smart enough!

[Kaiheitai]

Hey out of country now but looking at the coverage which mostly centers on Bkk. I hear that in Udon, Khon Kaen, and Chiang Mai they have actually taken over the local government buildings. Frankly this surprises me... surprises me that they took so long to think of this, I mean why ship supports from their base to 600km south when you can pretty much cut them off at the provincial level much more easily (hello, asymmetric warfare anyone?), now I'm not advocating this just employing a hypothetical if I was an angry red shirt leader. But really it seems like a fairly good pressure tactic if not a strangle hold move.

So my question is whats going on up there? News reports on the up country situation are sparse, just one sentence mentions. Ok freelance reports lets hear the news and post some pictures!

By the way this seems to me (having observed T~land over the years) to be the pains of a structural realignment of power, there is a generational shift happening in Thai politics as certain faces and figures pass from the scene while a new political consciousness has awakened among the rural poor undermining a hierarchy of power that has existed for a generation, simply put; these are growing pains, Thailand will emerge stronger in 5-10 years under the right conditions. It seems the Dems are operating on borrowed time, things will give eventually. IMO

[maaka]

so I make little mistakes from time to time, yellows or red, you still got the guts of my humble opinion, and thats all it is an opinion.if I come across as ignorant, does that mean I shouldnt have a voice on this site, or on any topic, and I such sit quietly by, and let you all ramble on....how do we get to the heart of matters, facts real or not, if we dont use each other as sounding boards..who do we believe here unless we poke and prod for the truth..

[marshallb66]

I wouldn’t lose sleep over Spatts comments. Look at all his posts. They are derogatory towards almost everyone who doesn’t agree with him.

[TJ]

Let's hope democracy becomes more than a catch phrase and elections are held.

Democracy means different things to different people at diferent times.

Thailand is a constitutional monarchy. Its head of state is an individual and the head of government is the prime minister.

I'm from the USA which is a nation state established as a limited federated constitutional republic, not a democracy and never has been.

While I am ignorant of the powers granted to the state IAW Thailand's Constitution, it is common, and necessary, for the nation's people to empower their governmnet with the exclusive right to a monopoly on and use of force. The U.S. Constitution grants additional powers, such as the right to suspend habeus corpus, when dealing with a citizen issurection. The Thai Constitution may do the like.

The Thai Constitution should clearly define the process and requirements for electing representitives to the governing bodies and offices, their terms of office and means of removal or replacement. This should be respected and protected.

Is should be the duty of the Thai State to excercise its constitutional powers to protect its citizens from mob violence.

If anything should be a catch phrase IMO it would be: take immediate action to protect threatened citizens which is the duty of the government by law as established by the Thai Constitution and administered by the properly elected government officials and their appointed agents.

[Khun Paul]

While I concur with the last comments about democracy, this seems to be part of the problem, the reds do NOT accept that the current government is legal hence their continued actions, this may be a very small part of their reasoning but it is a part of it.
To me personally, since the Coup, I have never understood the rationale behind what the Reds nor even what the Yellows think. They both really seem to be on the path of self destruction, wanting democracy but on their terms, We hear that almost 100000 protesters were there what about the other 65.3 million people, what do they think, they are not all ignorant Issan farmers are they !! As portrayed by many, hopefully this will not degenerate into a bloody shambles and Thais will start to see and consider sensible options.But I am holding my breath...................

[jackspratt]

I wouldn’t lose sleep over Spatts comments. Look at all his posts. They are derogatory towards almost everyone who doesn’t agree with him.

What are you on about marshall?

This has nothing to do with agreeing or not otherwise. maaka made a post on another thread referring the Lao/Thai history, and this is what I was referring to.

Did you notice the smiley?

It would seem that a lack of humour goes hand in hand with being a climate change denier.

[FrazeeDK]

watched a lot of the video from Asia Channel yesterday showing the confrontation. It was reported that the military unit involved was a Battalion of the Royal Guards Regiment (2nd Inf. Div).. Now, I don't know but would surmise that a Royal Guards Regiment might not be full of conscript lads from Issan and perhaps would be considered an "elite" formation.. Also, I noted that the soliders were carrying a Bullpup rifle similary to what the British Army carries, and that a number of times during the video it showed soldiers firing these weapons in the direction of the protesters.. Is there a "rubber" bullet for these weapons that doesn't require an adapter at the muzzle and use of blanks?? Also noted soliders with shotguns firing at the protesters.. I know that there are "rubber bullet" shotgun cartridges so would surmise that's what they were shooting.. Both sides agreed on joint autopsies of the 21 dead but I haven't seen anything released yet on cause of death.. Asia Channel was reporting yesterday that their correspondents had seen people with injuries that appeared to be bullet wounds..
I think the Army did the right thing in pulling back.. It's quite apparent that the military and police riot training is lacking and any fracas will turn out badly for all.. Hopefully, the minority parties in Abhisit's coalition will push the PM to compromise on an earlier dissolution of Parliament (perhaps 90 days)...

[bn]

Well, IMO a lot of expat Farang here that should keep their ill informed opinions to themselves. There is garbage written all over the Thai forums showing just what a pack of ignorant people we (including me) are. Until you know the FACTS both real and political just stand back and keep a low profile, even profit out of it if your smart enough!

=D>

Raw footage is available on youtube for anyone who wants to at least make an attempt to discern for themselves who really instigated what in terms of violence. Anything from a major Thai or international media reads like nothing but spin and propaganda from someone with an agenda. I watched some from the incident at the bridge and it looked like everything was fine if a bit tense when some shots rang out and mob panic took over and everything spun out of control.

Who fired the first shots is unknown. An nervous soldier? A paid thug instigator on the red side? Probably something we will sadly never know and the victorious side will (re)write history.

I feel sorry for the 99.9% of the soldiers and protesters who the leaders on both sides are more then happy to sacrifice to further their own corrupt agendas in a quest for power and wealth.

[jackspratt]

So you applaud Dero's view that we should keep our opinions to ourselves.

But in the next breath you give us your considered opinion.

[Bandung_Dero]

That's exactly what I'm on about. My post said "ILL INFORMED OPINION" Jack! You place your own interpretation on it, post some crap accusing me off having an ideal I haven't. That's what is going with threads like this.

[WBU ALUM]

Well, IMO a lot of expat Farang here that should keep their ill informed opinions to themselves. There is garbage written all over the Thai forums showing just what a pack of ignorant people we (including me) are. Until you know the FACTS both real and political just stand back and keep a low profile ...

Very good advice.