Deaths in Bangkok

[Michael C]

I went into Bangkok for the first time in a couple of months. No sign of the red shirts moving out of Bangkok. Switched over from the underground to the skytrain at Silom/Sala Daeng. Many places were closed down and triple strands of concertina wire deployed along the road. Passed over the red shirt strong hold, saw more tents than red shirts. Thought the shopping areas of the Siam area were open, but no, closed down because of the red shirts. More noise from loud speakers spouting red propaganda than red shirts there. I was not aware the they were in both areas when I went to that area, although they appear to be spread VERY thinly. Reminds me of the old military saying: "he who trys to defend everything, defends nothing." Such inept leadership, lack of vision and planning should make the red shirts very easy to remove when the time for action comes.

Not sure anyone could explain the red shirts position now; it appears that their position shifts like the wind.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

So, where are we now?

Abhisit offered (1 week ago) an early election, based on seemingly rational milestones to be achieved. This was widely, and positively received by the local and international press.

The Reds (and I refer to the leadership, not the seemingy lambs who are being led along the way) have procrastinated up till yesterday, when they stated unequivocally they would disband the Bangkok camp and await the election, after Sutthep presented himself to the police to answer complaints which had been bought since the April 10 fiasco.

At 0830 this morning, Sutthep duly reported to the DSI (Dept of Special Investigations).

What is the current position in Rajprasong? A rhetorical question, but one which I hope can be explained by Val (and to a lesser extent Khondham).

It would seem that only one side is seeking confrontation, because without it, the aims of the paymaster (Thaksin) cannot be achieved.

Ummm, you expect True Brit and KhonDahm to answer a question neither you, the government and the international and local press can answer? This is wishful thinking at its finest.

What rational milestones were to be achieved? This was a document by the government and for the government in which they would gain credit for any achievements made. Perhaps if they offered to include red shirt opinion in an official capacity, the offer might be a bit more rational.

[jackspratt]

Tilo, you will note I said the question was rhetorical - and the answer is quite clear.

The reds are still occupying Rajprasong despite their clear commitment to the contrary. What I was (and still am) seeking from from UM red supporters is their understanding of why this is the case.

The red leadership is a rabble, and I have come to the belief that the Issan (and other) followers (no matter how reasonable their cause and aspirations) are being led along like sheep (hopefully not to the slaughter).

[bumper]

When I said rule by mob. I wasn't just talking about the Red Shirts,. think about it Farmers want something, block a road and they get it. Egat don't want them in your area. block a road. Might be the only way they can get attention to a problem. But, it's damn effective.

[trubrit]

Well Jack I hadn't answered up to now as you said it was a rhetorical question. Which as I am sure you know, means a question to which you don't expect a reply. So why ask it, must remain a mystery to me .However I would point out I am merely a common or garden, wise man, unlike yourself on your avatar in which you claim to be the UM forum Guru. So , using all the powers you are undoubtedly endowed with perhaps the ball is in your court . :-"

[bumper]

Another Idle threat, or?

PM to red shirts: Leave today
By The Nation
Published on May 12, 2010

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva issued an ultimatum to the red shirts to leave the Rajprasong protest site by today after their failure to honour their commitment to end the protest despite Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban reporting to the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) yesterday as demanded by them.

The government would step up measures to force them to leave the areas and such measures might also affect people who live and do business there, he said.

"If they have sincerely accepted the road map for national reconciliation as announced earlier, the protesters should go home by May 12 and we can discuss other matters in detail later," Abhisit told reporters.

A government source said the Centre for Resolution of the Emergency Situation would cut power and water supply in the Rajprasong area to force the protesters to leave.

Prime Minister Abhisit discussed the plan at the Cabinet meeting yesterday, asking ministers what to do if the protesters resisted the ultimatum. Most Cabinet members suggested that the deal on the road map should be off if the protesters did not accept it, and the government would not be bound to call an early election on November 14 as planned, the source said.

"I consider the end of the protest as a pre-requisite if they want to show their acceptance of the road map. If the protest continues, it means they say no to the road map," Abhisit said.

The five-point road map for national reconciliation is not a negotiable scheme and the protesters will have to accept it, he said.

Red-shirt leader Jatuporn Promphan said the protesters would not comply with the government's ultimatum and would stay on until Suthep really 'surrendered' to the police.

"We are not afraid of such pressure. After the death of many protesters, nothing can stop the red people," he said. "How can we stop as the murderers are walking freely."

The red shirts had announced on Monday that they would disperse from the business centre, which they have occupied for more than a month, as soon as Suthep turned himself over to the authorities. The red shirts have said he must take responsibility for the death of civilians during a clash between protesters and security officials on April 10.

Red-shirt leader Natthawut Saikua said Suthep's turning up at the DSI yesterday was unacceptable since the department has not yet begun the legal process against him.

The DSI has not yet made a file for Suthep's case, he said. The department so far has only five categories under its jurisdiction: terrorism, posing a threat to the state, hurting government officials, stealing official weapons, and lese majeste, Natthawut said, quoting records in the Royal Gazette.

Suthep's case would begin only if the committee for special cases agreed to take up his case into its jurisdiction, he said. His presence at the DSI yesterday did not meet the red shirts' condition to end the protest, Natthawut said.

The deputy prime minister did not meet DSI chief Tharit Pengdit as a suspect but as a boss who went there to inspect the office, said another leader Jatuporn.

"We cannot accept such play between Suthep and the DSI as fulfilling the condition to end the protest," he said.

What the protesters want Suthep to do is to surrender to the police as a suspect. He must be interrogated, give his fingerprint and obtain bail, Jatuporn said.

"If Suthep goes through the process, the red shirts will stop protesting and follow in his footsteps," Jatuporn said.

Abhisit said the red leaders have no right to set the condition for Suthep to surrender. Suthep did not need to see the DSI since the department has not yet issued any warrants for him. The PM said Suthep met the DSI chief yesterday just to show the government was willing to go through the justice system.

The government would set up independent bodies to look after all concerned matters, including the bloody incidents during the clashes in April, he said. Persons responsible for each of the incidents would be known only after completion of the investigation, he said.

[jackspratt]

Well Jack I hadn't answered up to now as you said it was a rhetorical question. Which as I am sure you know, means a question to which you don't expect a reply. So why ask it, must remain a mystery to me .However I would point out I am merely a common or garden, wise man, unlike yourself on your avatar in which you claim to be the UM forum Guru. So , using all the powers you are undoubtedly endowed with perhaps the ball is in your court . :-"

Don't worry Val - I imagine if you keep changing your UM identities you will (if you haven't already) rack up enough combined posts to be given the Forum imposed title of guru.

BTW - any comments on what is happening at Rajprasong?

[trubrit]

BTW - any comments on what is happening at Rajprasong?

Now I am totally confused Jack . In your reply to Tilo you said both, that the question was rhetorical and the answer , was quite clear .Now you are asking for my humble comments . Perhaps you should come off the fence for once and give us, not only your interpretation of events but also the reason for your views., as up to now I haven't personally detected anything other than criticism of others posting or the usual quoting of other , hopefully , more informed, newspaper scribes . So let me ask Jack . What do YOU think .? That's not a rhetorical question

[trubrit]

Bumper . I won't repeat the whole article you quoted but I would question the following . Abhisit has issued to my knowledge at least five ultimatums. Now as he and I are alumni , I am sure he understands the meaning of the word ultimatum. It means final, as in the very last . Now to have issued so many it has devalued his word . No one can take his utterance of another ultimatum seriously . They simply become threats which are normally treated with disdain .
Take this latest one you have quoted . He will cut off the water and electricity supplies . Does he seriously think this will be effective on people who are used to having these cut off , on an almost daily basis, in their routine daily life . Is his life so closeted that he hasn't heard of generators or ever seen a water wagon ? They have shown they are prepared to give their lives for the cause. I am sure a minor inconvenience like not being able to wash won't worry them . Its more likely to cause him a bit of a stink I would have thought .(Pun intended )
This issue can only be solved by negotiation, however much his cronies like Suthep advocate a military forceful "solution"
He has tried that once and now the whole world is watching. It would be utter madness to bring out the guns again .
No quotes or anything . Just my humble opinion .

[bumper]

Surprise I agree

I wouldn't believe him any longer, either. I think it may be time for him to step down now. He has become a paper tiger. Lets see portable generators to run the sound system, trucking water in, just sounds like business a usual around Issan.

What seems frightening to me , is if he did step down. Would the next guy be the guy who who would be bring the guns in.

I don't have a clue. I sometimes think what would happen at the moment if Thaksin was in charge. I don't think we would be talking about this subject. Is that good or bad. Darned if I know.

[jackspratt]

BTW - any comments on what is happening at Rajprasong?

Now I am totally confused Jack . In your reply to Tilo you said both, that the question was rhetorical and the answer , was quite clear .Now you are asking for my humble comments . Perhaps you should come off the fence for once and give us, not only your interpretation of events but also the reason for your views., as up to now I haven't personally detected anything other than criticism of others posting or the usual quoting of other , hopefully , more informed, newspaper scribes . So let me ask Jack . What do YOU think .? That's not a rhetorical question

Hmmm.......selective reading, or senile memory loss.

It appears less and less likely that the "road map" will be accepted by the Reds, with the latest development being an apparent split in the leadership.

According to some reports, the lunatic Katthiya says Thaksin has decided to "sack" the current "moderate" leadership, and install in its place hardliners including Udon's own crazy, Kwanchai, plus the criminal Arisman, and others.

There is speculation on other sites that Katthiya is actually a double agent, acting on behalf of PAD - the basis being that he is so damaging to the red cause, he can't be for real.

If this road map falls through, I doubt another offer will be put on the table, in which case, hold on to your hats.

So, where are we now?

Abhisit offered (1 week ago) an early election, based on seemingly rational milestones to be achieved. This was widely, and positively received by the local and international press.

The Reds (and I refer to the leadership, not the seemingy lambs who are being led along the way) have procrastinated up till yesterday, when they stated unequivocally they would disband the Bangkok camp and await the election, after Sutthep presented himself to the police to answer complaints which had been bought since the April 10 fiasco.

At 0830 this morning, Sutthep duly reported to the DSI (Dept of Special Investigations).

What is the current position in Rajprasong? A rhetorical question, but one which I hope can be explained by Val (and to a lesser extent Khondham).

It would seem that only one side is seeking confrontation, because without it, the aims of the paymaster (Thaksin) cannot be achieved.

The red leadership is a rabble, and I have come to the belief that the Issan (and other) followers (no matter how reasonable their cause and aspirations) are being led along like sheep (hopefully not to the slaughter).

And that's just the previous page.! Hardly on "the fence".

A look forward to you pointing out where (previously) on this thread I have criticized other posters - and that is not a rhetorical request.

[trubrit]

Jack. Your answer. I have read your quotes very carefully again . Your continued use of words and phrases,such as , apparent ,according to some reports, speculation and doubts , occur time and time again . I am sorry this doesn't convince me that you are using your own thinking mechanism but simply latching on like the sheep you keep mentioning, to the , sometimes biased beliefs of others . As for senility. It is better to have learnt and forgot , than never to have learnt at all .
Once again your reading comprehension has let you down , or maybe you need new glasses . I never said you criticised other posters but other postings . Try again .

[bumper]

Ok if it helps any I'm senile and have the MRI to prove it. Thank goodness I'm just stating I think

[jackspratt]

Val I have now changed my glasses (decidedly not rose coloured ), and will re-phrase my question:

I look forward to you pointing out where (previously) on this thread I have criticized other postings - and that is not a rhetorical request.

[Aardvark]

Jack, your kidding aren't you

[jackspratt]

Aa perhaps you and Val could get your heads together on this one. They say two heads are better than one.

Edit

Ooops.....I just looked at the Chern Chim thread, and I withdraw my suggestion.

[bumper]

Asia Pacific News

Thai government "scraps election proposal"
Posted: 12 May 2010 1903 hrs

BANGKOK - The Thai government is no longer negotiating with Red Shirts opposition protesters occupying Bangkok's main shopping district and has cancelled a proposed November 14 election, a senior government official said on Wednesday.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva had proposed to hold an election on November 14 under a "reconciliation" plan aimed at ending a two-month political crisis that has paralysed Bangkok and killed 29 people.

"The proposed date for election is called off but we will go forward with reconciliation plan," Korbsak Sabhavasu, the prime minister's secretary-general, told the Thai Public Broadcasting Service in a telephone interview.

Earlier Wednesday, the government announced it would cut off food, water and power supplies to the vast rally site in central Bangkok, urging local residents to leave as it prepared to seal off the area to prevent reinforcements arriving.

The mainly poor and working class Red Shirts shrugged off the tough new measures, rejecting a demand by Abhisit for the protests to end on Wednesday.

"If you want to crack down you're welcome at any time," said one of the protest leaders, Jatupron Prompan. "We will fight to the death," he said.

The Red Shirts have said they will continue their rally until deputy premier Suthep Thaugsuban is charged for his role overseeing a deadly April 10 crackdown, when armed troops attempted to clear part of the capital.

- CNA/AFP/ir

[trubrit]

Is this a farce or not ? The biggest cheer of the afternoon at the reds gathering , was to an announcement by the electricity company that owing to contractual obligations it is not able to disconnect the supply of electricity to the area .

[trubrit]

Jack, your kidding aren't you

Unfortunately I think not.

[jackspratt]

So when can your response be reasonably expected?