Does anyone else feel ashamed about what we did in Iraq?

[jackspratt]

Isn't that what Presidents are supposed to say.

Did he mention the bit about Iraq now being one of the unsafest places on earth?

[JimboPSM]

The September Dossier

• Extract from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Dossier
  

  The paper was part of a campaign by the government to bolster support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
  
  It contained a number of allegations according to which Iraq possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD), including chemical weapons and biological weapons.
  
  The Dossier even alleged that Iraq had reconstituted its nuclear weapons programme.
  
  Without exception, all of the allegations included within the September Dossier have since proven to be untrue, as shown by the Iraq Survey Group.

  I know no one in the UK who believes that the September Dossier was anything other than a “sexed up” document as reported by Andrew Gilligan.

As the UK Secret Service has been mentioned, this article from BBC News on evidence given by the Ex-MI5 head to the Iraq Enquiry adds further insight:

The invasion of Iraq "substantially" increased the terrorist threat to the UK, the former head of MI5 has said.

Giving evidence to the Iraq inquiry, Baroness Manningham-Buller said the action had radicalised "a few among a generation".

As a result, she said she was not "surprised" that UK nationals were involved in the 7/7 bombings in London.

She said she believed the intelligence on Iraq's threat was not "substantial enough" to justify the action.

Baroness Manningham-Buller said she had advised officials a year before the war that the threat posed by Iraq to the UK was "very limited", and she believed that assessment had "turned out to be the right judgement".

Describing the intelligence on Iraq's weapons threat as "fragmentary", she said: "If you are going to go to war, you need to have a pretty high threshold to decide on that."

In a previously secret document from 2002, Baroness Manningham-Buller wrote to the Home Office saying: "We assess that Saddam is only likely to order terrorist attacks if he perceives that the survival of his regime is threatened."

The Chilcot inquiry is continuing to hear evidence about decisions taken in the build-up to the invasion and its aftermath.

Baroness Manningham-Buller, head of the domestic intelligence service between 2002 and 2007, said the terrorist threat to the UK from al-Qaeda and other groups "pre-dated" the Iraq invasion and also the 9/11 attacks in the US.

'Terrorist impetus'

However, she said the UK's participation in the March 2003 military action "undoubtedly increased" the level of terrorist threat.

A year after the invasion, she said MI5 was "swamped" by leads about terrorist threats to the UK.

"Our involvement in Iraq, for want of a better word, radicalised a whole generation of young people, some of them British citizens who saw our involvement in Iraq, on top of our involvement in Afghanistan, as being an attack on Islam," she said, before immediately correcting herself by adding "not a whole generation, a few among a generation".

The ex-MI5 chief said she shared her concerns that the Iraq invasion would increase the UK's exposure to terrorism with the then home secretary David Blunkett, but did not "recall" discussing the matter with Prime Minister Tony Blair.

MI5 did not "foresee the degree to which British citizens would become involved" in terrorist activity after 2004, she admitted.

"What Iraq did was produce fresh impetus on people prepared to engage in terrorism," she said, adding that she could produce evidence to back this up.

"The Iraq war heightened the extremist view that the West was trying to bring down Islam. We gave Bin Laden his jihad."

Budget increase

Lady Manningham-Buller said MI5 was given a budget increase after 9/11 and again in 2002 but the agency still needed far greater resources as a result of the Iraq invasion.

"By 2003 I found it necessary to ask the prime minister for a doubling of our budget," she said. "This is unheard of, certainly unheard of today, but he and the Treasury and the chancellor accepted that, because I was able to demonstrate the scale of the problem that we were confronted by."

Baroness Manningham-Buller was part of the government's Joint Intelligence Committee before the war, which drew up the controversial dossier on Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction in September 2002. The dossier stated the weapons could be activated with 45 minutes of an order to do so.

Asked about the dossier, she said she had very limited involvement in its compilation but it was clear, with hindsight, that there was an "over-reliance" on certain intelligence.

She added: "We were asked to put in some low-grade, small intelligence into it and we refused because we did not think that it was reliable."

'Containable threat'

She said MI5's responsibility was to collect and analyse intelligence and to "act on it where necessary" to mitigate terrorist threats, but stressed it was not her job "to fill in gaps" in the intelligence.

A year before the war, the former MI5 chief advised Home Office officials that the direct threat posed by Iraq to the UK was "very limited and containable".

In a newly declassified document, published by the inquiry, Baroness Manningham-Buller told the senior civil servant at the Home Office in March 2002 that there was no evidence that Iraq had any involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

While there were reports of links between the regime of Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda, there was no intelligence to suggest meaningful co-operation between the two.

In that letter, she said the possibility Iraq might use terrorist tactics to defend its own territory in the event of an invasion could not be ruled out.

But she stressed Iraqi agents did not have "much capability" to carry out UK attacks, adding her view of this never changed.

In his evidence in January, Tony Blair described Saddam Hussein as a "monster" and said the world was a safer place with him no longer in control of Iraq.

Original article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10693001

[Texpat]

Nobody wants to hazard a guess why the premiere intelligence organization in the world was asleep at the wheel?
You know the world's top Inspector Cleseau's --the James Bonds were all on vacation?

Or were they sucked into Evil Dubya's vortex of intentional lies and innuendo?

one of the unsafest places on earth

There are four times more homicides in the Socialist utopia of Venezuela (similar population) as there are in Iraq. Look it up.

[DesertStorm]

Nobody wants to hazard a guess why the premiere intelligence organization in the world was asleep at the wheel?

Because they engineered everything and were only pretending to to be asleep!

[nkstan]

Nobody wants to hazard a guess why the premiere intelligence organization in the world was asleep at the wheel?
You know the world's top Inspector Cleseau's --the James Bonds were all on vacation?

Or were they sucked into Evil Dubya's vortex of intentional lies and innuendo?

one of the unsafest places on earth

There are four times more homicides in the Socialist utopia of Venezuela (similar population) as there are in Iraq. Look it up.

Not sure who ''the premiere intelligence organization in the World'' is,so hard to reply!

[hangsaboot]

peace envoy tony blair { bad joke ]

is to donate all the proceeds of his forthcoming memoirs
to a charity of the british armed forces .
this is guilt/conscience money ,
since he was a key figure in engineering the unjustified bush/blair war ,

no evidence was found of nuclear missiles in iraq , and the subequent
suicide / murder of DR david kelly , who led the investigation in iraq .

we like to think we live in a fair and democratic society .

desert storm ,,, what have you done with your medals ,
do you wear them , with pride ?.

[DesertStorm]

Gathering dust back home!

The only thing I'm proud about is having saved the lives of younger ground troops!

[nkstan]

I wonder if all of you that ''feel'' ashamed about what we did in Iraq,are equally concerned about all the starving people in the World that are not receiving your direct help they really need to survive death from disease and starvation?

This is not a redirection of the thread heading,but a challenge to those that are feeling so bad about one thing,that they have very little power over ,to compare their ''feelings'' about something they can do something about,but are not!!

If you are not doing anything about those millions of people,are you feeling ''ashamed'' that you are allowing them to suffer horribly and die?Are you not part of the genocide?

Please tell me the importance of those fewer people that suffered and died in Iraq versus all those starving dying people that you are party to by not doing what you have the power to do!

maybe a few less beers and less pussy,with the money contributed would help

[jackspratt]

Nice red herring there, Stan.

Just imagine how much good the $750 billion spent thus-far on the Iraq invasion and occupation (just by the US) could have done for the world's starving and underprivileged.

http://costofwar.com/

[old-timer]

maybe a few less beers and less pussy,with the money contributed would help

Your having a laugh, how would that help.
The thing is Iraq is and always has been, except for the oil, so far disconnected with America that the invasion has turned out to be a waste of soldiers lives and money. For what ? OT might not be that clued up when it comes to the Invasion of Iraq, however I do fail to see what was the point of it other than than the USA greed. Can I ask, and don't start on about WMD's, what was it all about. There are far more hurtfull dictators in the world that America wouldn't dream of invading .
American dominance comes to mind, although I don't have a problem with that, if OT had the clout he would respond with more beer and more WFB's.

OT.......acurate political reporting as usual........

[nkstan]

Red herring?My understanding is that would be designed to divert from the ''moralistic discussion regarding feelings',which was the topic'!
What are the motives for such as question as this ''feeling ashamed'' query?Moralizing about right and wrong,passing judgement on the USA and its leaders at the time?

If I was serving and felt ashamed,before I started judging others and moralizing about it,I would hope that I would stand up myself.Why serve,remember Mohammud Ali?

I just love it when someone asked a question,but insists that you not discuss your reasons!Good one OT =D> =D>

[old-timer]

Alright, let's get back on track here with the OP, and OT's answer is - No I do not feel ashamed. My brother in law who served for the British Army in Basra does. Why ? because he was given a load of ---- equipment to fight a war that had no real objective that anyone cared about. Let me ask the question - why did the USA and it's allies invade iraq ? and in anyones answer to this please include hindsight, because in OT's opinion that should count. All intellengce gathering was manipulated to suit at the time. Iraqs a right mess now, although US companies have a dominance there.

OT............

[nkstan]

Alright, let's get back on track here with the OP, and OT's answer is - No I do not feel ashamed. My brother in law who served for the British Army in Basra does. Why ? because he was given a load of ---- equipment to fight a war that had no real objective that anyone cared about. Let me ask the question - why did the USA and it's allies invade iraq ? and in anyones answer to this please include hindsight, because in OT's opinion that should count. All intellengce gathering was manipulated to suit at the time. Iraqs a right mess now, although US companies have a dominance there.

OT............

How can hindsight be included in a decision?No one would ever make a mistake!Hindsight is for evaluating a situation to avoid making any more mistakes or to confirm proper actions!

Of course hindsight is used here for some to act like they knew best or serve some other agenda!Even much of the hindsight stated her is innuedo,supposition,conspiracy theory and spinning to serve an agenda!Here is a great example''All intelligence gathering was manipulated to suit at the time''!Really?Now prove the statement!

[thanuhak]

Jane Mayer pretty much "proves it" in her excellent book, "The Dark Side". Well worth a read.

The invasion was not justified.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Tenet, Addington, et al, couldn't've given a damn.

The even greater tragedy was the diversion of critical resources away from Afghanistan at the time.

Most well-informed people are pretty much in agreement with this.

[Jockey]

I am from the UK and yes I am very ashamed my country invaded Iraq killing millions of innocent civilians, displacing millions more and putting in place a puppet government that has allowed Western companies to take over most of the countries resources particularly the oil. Its common knowledge Blair & Bush along with their lackeys lied to us to get acceptance to invade. All in the name of corporate fascism. Blair & Bush are war criminals, no different to Hitler.

Whats even worse our so-called civilized countries used Depleted Uranium which will take thousands of years to clear and in the meantime creates disfigured maimed babies and very sick people.

Not in my name.

[old-timer]

Here is a great example''All intelligence gathering was manipulated to suit at the time''!Really?Now prove the statement!

OT's just speaking out loud without any proof of what he's saying. I quite liked President Bush, I've watched his movie 3 or 4 times. He is a Patriot. I wonder what bright spark told him that there are weapons in Iraq that are a threat. I'm surprised that the pointless invasion, loss of American and it's allies lives, cost and cleaning up has not been blamed on the CEO of BP.

OT..........

[Jockey]

I quite liked President Bush, I've watched his movie 3 or 4 times. He is a Patriot.

Are you aware of the Bush families close friendship and business ties with the Bin Laden family and are you aware of the Bush family connection with the German fascists? These connections, along with many other criminal activities connected with the Bush family were not mentioned in Oliver Stone's film "W". Sure it was a good film but Hollywood should not be confused with real life history.

[arjay]

I notice some of the wives have moustaches. Is that an indication of the integrity of the article?

[DermotC]

I really like when bush said when speaking about Saddam ''That man Tried to Kill my Daddy''

[old-timer]

[Are you aware of the Bush families close friendship and business ties with the Bin Laden family and are you aware of the Bush family connection with the German fascists? ]

From time to time OT cannot prevent himself from doing a double back flip off his chair with laughter. Jockey - was it your family doctor that removed your brain ?

OT..........