Does anyone else feel ashamed about what we did in Iraq?

[DermotC]

I dont need to look it up Firstimebangkok. I completely stand by what i said as its 100% correct! This is the system we have and if it were any other way no decisions would ever get made. Can you imagine if every time a law was passed that you had to go to the voter to vote on it. There would be voting about 5 times a day 365 days a year!

Democracy is not perfect and Im not argueing that fact but its the best we have at the moment until something better comes along!

[Texpat]

If Every leader of every country did what their voters wanted everytime the world would fall apart! We elect our officials, who should be much better and more informed than us to make those decisions for us. That is democracy!

Ummm, sort of. Where I come from the people are the government and the government represents the people. Any elected official must walk the tightrope balancing what voters want and what's best for voters. In a perfect world, they are the same. More often, there is compromise. Term limits would be most welcome.

When you have a egomaniac like Bobo in office, what voters want is the furthest thing from his mind. He knows what's best and he'll cram as much down our throats as he can in his one term. That is certainly NOT what America elected him to do. Halfway into his term and America has realized what an idiot he is. Some of us saw through his charade from the beginning.

There is a point of diminishing returns by keeping US forces in Iraq any longer. By this point, the Afghan military and police units will not likely get appreciably better as time passes. If they're not up to the task by now, hanging around for another year or three years will only serve to put off a similar scenario (whatever that will be) until later.
Iraqis are ready to govern themselves. They don't want US troops there any longer than necessary. The US is ready to leave them to their devices (with 50K in garrison for a while).

This is what was agreed upon.

[firsttimebangkok]

Sorry, I wish what you said was correct.

In the States politicians are controlled by lobbyists(money) that don't have whats best for the people in mind.

If thats the best there is, then for sure the U.S.A. is not a country that should be leading the way. Not sure who should, just a sad situation all around.

[firsttimebangkok]

Sorry Texpat, If Obama is an idiot. Then Bush was a ******.

[Texpat]

If thats the best there is, then for sure the U.S.A. is not a country that should be leading the way.

Without a better model, this is what you get. Don't be sorry, you'll just die unhappy.

Perhaps the socialist Utopian society of Venezuela can be the new model. Only FOUR TIMES the homicide rate of Iraq (with similar populations).

Why isn't that little factoid in the news? Why can't the EU do something to help Venezuela?

[DesertStorm]

Bush is STILL a ****** and will remain so until he dies.

I read an interesting statistic somewhere that 70% of his public speeches were just 'ur' and 'um'.

There's some great moments of him on You Tube!

[firsttimebangkok]

America needs to focus on Americans and their falling standard of living, China is on their heels, and will overtake economically and become the leading SuperPower. Hispanics and Blacks and other minorities are slowly becoming the majority population wise.

More stimulus needs to be given to small business, they will hire locally, they will hire Americans. Big business, which controls the decision making will hire foreigners who are paid less. US companies will expand globally for their own profits at the expense of US employees (make a buck, the American Way find when it wasn't a global economy).

[DermotC]

[quote="firsttimebangkok"] Hispanics and Blacks and other minorities are slowly becoming the majority population wise.

What exactly is wrong with that FTB?

[firsttimebangkok]

Nothing at all, just that American values are going to change. The people leading the nation right now, besides the president I guess (crusty old school white males, no offense meant, they don't represent the make up of the population ) need to step down and let the new generation take over.

[DermotC]

I cant agree nor disagree as you need an American to do that but i will say the population make- up (Races) does not seem to me to be proportunate to law makers, most of whom as you have said are white.

Very good point!

[Texpat]

America needs to focus on Americans and their falling standard of living, China is on their heels, and will overtake economically and become the leading SuperPower.

I hear this kind of talk a lot. I'm not sure those who cite it are clear about the comparisons they're making.

Gross domestic product per capita, in the US is about $46,000 in China it's about $6,000. THat's the final value of goods and services produced by a nation in a year divided by its population.

The US is in the top six or eight in a number of tables (IMF, World Bank, CIA) China hovers around 100.
That's a heck of a gap to leap. Also, the income disparity between rich and poor in China makes the US gap look like child's play.

It will happen someday, but not in our lifetimes.

[parrot]

"falling standard of living"

If you mean that the home someone bought for $150,000 in 1995 and was worth $350,000 in 2006 but is only worth $200,000 today, I don't consider that a falling standard of living.
My 15 or so nieces/nephews are spread out across the US, living much better lifestyles than their parents lived as the same age. Yes, they have a good education, they have jobs, they're probably in debt, but to characterize them as suffering from a falling standard of living is a stretch.

[firsttimebangkok]

Unemployment in the States is already creating a strain and hardship for many, but not all. If big business has its way it will make the US more competitive globally (lower wages), so it can make greater profits.

Or just move the jobs overseas. Leaving more unemployment and slowly erode the standard of living for US citizens, so US companies can make their shareholders richer.
As the living standards in the emerging markets improve, the western standards will fall. You cannot improve, or sustain living standards without economic growth.

[cookie]

Gross domestic product per capita, in the US is about $46,000 in China it's about $6,000. THat's the final value of goods and services produced by a nation in a year divided by its population.

The US is in the top six or eight in a number of tables (IMF, World Bank, CIA) China hovers around 100.
That's a heck of a gap to leap. Also, the income disparity between rich and poor in China makes the US gap look like child's play.

It will happen someday, but not in our lifetimes.

just to balance your statement : " Not in our lifetimes..."
things are changing rapidly in opposite sides: the US GDP is going down like hell and the chinese GDP is soaring.

in order to prove my statement;
just take a look at the GDP per capita GROW RATE:

number 13 on the list : China with a GDP grow rate of 10.1%
and USA number 133 on the list with a grow rate of 1.9 % per year.

I also want to point out that this were numbers from the year 2006
these numbers changed even more dramatically over the past 4 years !!!!!

not in our lifetime is getting closer by the day, isn't it.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... rowth_rate

[ScorpioPower]

I haven't looked at this thread for a while. It's a whopper! Someone else may have already posted the following...

...the head of the UN said that the Iraq invasion was illegal.

[firsttimebangkok]

Nice intelligent post Cookie. Kinda backs up what I said.

[parrot]

"China with a GDP grow rate of 10.1%
and USA number 133 on the list with a grow rate of 1.9 % per year."

I'd bet my money on China growing for the next 5-10 years. Past that, I'd say it's a gamble. Don't forget how everyone was gushing over how effective the Japanese economic model was in the 80's. The Chinese style of doing business seems to be a 180 from Western society. Maybe that'll work out for them, but I'm more inclined to believe that the western style is more effective in the long run. More checks/balances, more changes in government to hopefully prevent someone like a Goodluck Jonathan, Hugo Chavez, or Kim Jong-il flushing things down the toilet.
I'm not ready to cash in the chips on the US anytime soon.

[jackspratt]

Pretty tough call on Goodluck Johnathon, parrot.

After all, he only became President of Nigeria in May of this year, after acting in the position for about 5 months. In that time, I am not aware that Nigeria has gone backwards.

From what I have read, as a Christian, he is no certainty to win the upcoming election in 2011, where by convention, a Muslim is slated to fill the top job.

[parrot]

Point taken on Johnathon....scratch Nigeria.

A few interesting comments in a New York Times column concerning the war in Iraq:
The first by SecDef Gates:
"The problem with this war for, I think, many Americans is that the premise on which we justified going to war proved not to be valid — that is, Saddam having weapons of mass destruction.” He added, candidly: “It will always be clouded by how it began.”"

The second, in ref to Tony Blair:
He concedes that the invasion of Iraq was more about symbols than immediate security, about sending “a message of total clarity to the world,” after 9/11, that defying the will of the international community would no longer be tolerated.

In other words, Osama bin Laden had emasculated America, and America had to hit back, and did so against a country that had nothing to do with him or 9/11.

The full column is at nytimes.com/2010/09/05/opinion/05dowd.html?hp (add the www.)

[jackspratt]

It seems the number of excuses/rationalisations from Bush and Blair just grows and grows. It was so much more simple when it was all about WMDs.

I can hardly wait for John Howard's self serving explanations, in his book which will no doubt emerge soon.