English to be second language

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trubrit
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Re: English to be second language

Post by trubrit » October 13, 2010, 6:26 am

Khun Paul wrote: But then as with many things some speak before engaging brain. This includes Thai politicians and others.


Poor old KP. He tries so hard to impress and take the high road, then he calls his English professor a porfessor and finishes up with an observation like the one above . Still it gives me a laugh . :lol: :lol: :roll:


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DesertStorm
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Re: English to be second language

Post by DesertStorm » October 13, 2010, 8:15 am

I taught English after leaving the army.

I've been a volunteer teacher for almost as long in Thailand.

Here's my take.

Thailand Is Not Ready To Upgrade English

It really isn't ready.

And the problem is two-fold and because of the levels that I teach at, I can see where the problems lay. I teach first to fourth grade.

Firstly there are MoE budgets and the policing of native speaker teachers and the constant changing of rules and regulations for what is a relatively small salary. How about a clear mandate on what is supposed to be taught and in what flavor of English?

Then there's the almost total absence of phonics and basic letter writing in kindergarten. Those years are largely wasted. More than 70% of the English language can be read and pronounced using phonics, but the kids here are largely taught the whole word recognition method.

This means that first grade gets hit straight away because so much of what should have taken place in kindergarten has to be squeezed into each term.

50+ class sizes with 50 minute periods also make it nigh on impossible for one-to-one verbal interaction and this means that rather than learning English, students learn 'about' it.

Lots of students per class equals lots of papers to mark which equals gap fills and multiple choice tests because they're easier to mark.

So, we skip happily through first, second and third grade, without any of the students being able to produce free form language of their own, verbal or written, and only having the ability to answer basic yes or no questions.

They might be competent with notebooks, workbooks and worksheets, but they're still not actively using any of the language, beyond funny and cool words like Mr. Bean and Ben 10.

And then they hit fourth grade where past, present and future tenses are suddenly introduced and it leaves at least 50% of them dead in the water. Fourth grade should really be a two year course, with half of it focused entirely on listening and speaking.

I've also taught fifth and sixth grade where the English becomes even more complex and impossible to use in active conversation.

And then they move on up to their teenage years where they get the A to Z of English grammar day in, day out. How incredibly dull and boring it must be for them. And again, they're not learning English, they're learning 'about' it.

And the end result of all of this? A noticeable percentage of Thais who can get the gist of what you are saying but cannot reply in kind, beyond yes, no or don't know.

Period.

Disgaree? Post a credible link, and not second rate, overhyped hearsay.

Here's a good example and I see no mention of Brits or Aussies here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews ... in-schools

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Re: English to be second language

Post by bamakmak » October 13, 2010, 8:51 am

Kuhn Paul, my position that native english speakers who are not necessarily British or Australian are legally allowed to teach in Thailand's public schools (both in the present and in the future) is based on the following:

1. There are currently American and Canadian english teachers in Thailand's public schools. (This is a fact that is common knowledge and to which even you have agreed).
2. There is absolutely no reference in the official website of the Ministry of Education of Thailand (www.moe.go.th) that foreign english teachers must be British or Australian. (If you can find a reference from this website, I will stand corrected).
3. In the 10 October 2010 issue of the Bangkok Post, Thailand's Education Minister Chinnaworn Boonyakiat is quoted "The ministry also plans to hire retired English instructors from the US to teach pupils in senior secondary schools. US authorities have agreed to invite retired teachers to work in Thailand". (A qualified source in a published document)

Your position, however is based on apparently two sources:
Khun Paul wrote:I am good friends with an English porfessor who just happens to be on the body of the British Council and my sources are from hi
Khun Paul wrote:my information comes direct from the Ministry
Neither of your sources are named nor do they appear IN ANY published document.

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Re: English to be second language

Post by Cheers » October 13, 2010, 10:55 am

Khun Paul...if American English is not acceptable in Thailand why are the students using American textbooks like Supergoal?

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Re: English to be second language

Post by Khun Paul » October 13, 2010, 3:17 pm

Because Thai teachers buy them not the ministry and most are cheaper, but in fact they have used the same book for the last 8 years ...modernity is not in the Thai language it seems.
The books are in the main for grammar which we all know is bloody useless if you cannot read which applies to the majority of Thai students in the early school years up to possibly M5 and even then it is at best poor.
Ah Bamakak why do you not Pm me, as I asked i can put more info on for you or in fact ask you to meet this English professor also statements by Thai Ministers as to who is doing what and when are quotes not necessarily facts.
Also as you seem inclined to attack my credibility I say this to you i sincerely hope that if you are a teacher you have the proper accreditation and a valid work permit for where you are teaching if you are not a teacher BUTT OUT as the yanks would say OK!!

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Re: English to be second language

Post by nkstan » October 13, 2010, 3:26 pm

What a bunch crap!Do we always have argue anout British,Americam,Australian and the like.Who gives a ----,what little English they learn doesn't mean a thing,And the particular accents of any these Nationalities are probably confusing anyway!

Most the ''textbooks I have seen through my daughters schooling are printed in Thailand and full of errors anyway.

But this BS nationalistic pride confrontations are really getting tiresome! [-X

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Re: English to be second language

Post by ScorpioPower » October 13, 2010, 4:11 pm

For the record, gentlemen, "Supergoal" was published for Hispanics. Content and author name prove this.

Just as ALL Cambridge and Oxford books are published for migrants to English speaking countries or Western Europeans intending to work in or visit one.

Some publishers have exceptions where they might produce a Thai-language version, but that is only based and funded on the strength of the sales of the original versions.

Jack C Richards has made a mint out of "New Interchange". Bless 'im.

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Re: English to be second language

Post by Aardvark » October 13, 2010, 4:32 pm

Cheers wrote:Quote: But thai Govt only recognises Australia and Britain.

Any chance of getting a factual source about this? Is it stated officially somewhere...or is it just a random thought cropping up in the minds of Brits?
Oi, whats wrong with Strine Mate, om sure the toys can learn good pommy from us Orstralians, infact they moit learn a thing or two :mrgreen: Sorry TB and KP, I couldn't help it :D

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Re: English to be second language

Post by jingjai » October 13, 2010, 5:12 pm

nkstan wrote:What a bunch crap!Do we always have argue anout British,Americam,Australian and the like.Who gives a ****,what little English they learn doesn't mean a thing,And the particular accents of any these Nationalities are probably confusing anyway!
Most the ''textbooks I have seen through my daughters schooling are printed in Thailand and full of errors anyway.
But this BS nationalistic pride confrontations are really getting tiresome! [-X
Agree 100% Stan.
As long as they can communicate to us in English and be understood, and we can communicate to them in English and be understood...isn't that the ultimate goal?

I'm thinking about Japan. When I lived, and I worked in the hotel industry in Hawaii, I met thousands of Japanese nationals who spoke English. I even worked at one time for a JAL Company, and met some of the executives of JAL. Now the English that these executives, and the other Japanese people that I met, their English was not American, British, Australian, or Canadian English. But it worked. And Japan is an economic power.

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Re: English to be second language

Post by trubrit » October 13, 2010, 7:36 pm

Aardvark wrote:

Oi, whats wrong with Strine Mate, om sure the toys can learn good pommy from us Orstralians, infact they moit learn a thing or two :mrgreen: Sorry TB and KP, I couldn't help it :D
Don't worry Aa. I have just found out that a "Sheila" is a big Australian bird . With the emphasise on the big .Can it fly ? :lol:
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Re: English to be second language

Post by Banjo » October 13, 2010, 9:06 pm

With the proliferation of the World Wide Web and associated globalisation (globalization for the Seppos), it has no doubt given rise to English becoming a more prominent language throughout the world. I recall being in Northern China in 1978 - blond hair, blue eyes, surfer tan and wearing a T-Shirt and shorts - and having people crowd around me to hear me speak English. I was an obvious novelty for the locals. At the time, the general Chinese population were forbidden to learn English ... now they (just about) all learn it! Many websites from non native English speaking nations are often produced in the local language and in English. Just look at the increasing number of Thai websites that have a 'UK Flag Button' to convert from Thai script to English script. Like with many other non native speaking nations and the websites they publish, so Technology has been driving this necessity to understand English. Many international business transactions are now being processed with English script software, with business in many different industries.

Obviously, it is of significant advantage for people of all nationalities doing international business to be able to understand and converse in one language, commonly English. The Chinese are certainly aware of this. However, there is a universally similar problem for students learning English as a Second Language in that the rest of the family speak their native language when they are at home. Thai students may have very good tuition to learn English for a short period of time at School, but they do not have the reinforced learning in the home environment. Other than those having a native English speaking farang parent at home, nearly all Thai students will be at home eating dinner with Mama and Papa and the family speaking Thai, and the TV blaring that supposedly funny Thai series. It just makes learning English so much more difficult for them. Native English speaking offspring have a distinct advantage. The issue is not about British, American, Australian, Cockney, Brummie, Geordie, Pigeon or Pidgin English ... it is about practicing, listening, understanding, speaking and writing English as often as possible.

The vast majority of qualified and competent teachers know that most of a young persons learning is not from School, but from the family environment. This is sometimes overlooked or not even recognised by parents/guardians, though often these parents/guardians are the recalcitrants, the philistines, the unwashed, the ignorant and/or the uneducated of the world. Nevertheless, I believe that English is certainly becoming the common language in which one can converse and deal with all people from all nations.

The brains trust in the Thai Ministry of Education may understand this one day .... though I am not convinced that any two of the same English -Thai translations will be the same :roll: TIT

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Re: English to be second language

Post by stattointhailand » October 13, 2010, 9:35 pm

Nobody has suggested it will happen overnight.
Hopefully, this generation of Thai students, who are taught English as a second language, will be far better prepared to help their children to learn in the future, and they in turn will be more able to teach their children.

mmmmmmmmm thinking about it, that never happened in the states did it :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: English to be second language

Post by trubrit » October 14, 2010, 6:38 am

Okay. We have all had our jokes and bouts of Nationalistic fervour, but lets consider. What is a language? It is a means of communication. So, English as a second language simply means a second way of communicating .All this talk about which is the correct version is immaterial. It doesn't have to be perfect as long as it is understood. The obvious exceptions to this are , of course, if the student is going to be a lawyer or a doctor, where precision in meaning could be important . Then that is a totally different level . So communication, between two persons of differing nationality is possible without the precision of grammar or punctuation. Just look at this forum. Many of the postings are far from precise, even those from English natives , especially those educated during the socialist comprehensive schooling days , more so than our transatlantic cousins , but we all comprehend the meaning, eventually.So it doesn't matter what version of English is being taught as long as it enables the pupil to communicate. What we don't want is teaching from translation as opposed to talking . That is what leads to the "high you and same,same" we so often hear .As for being able to practise what will have been learnt in school. That is something the government in general must help with . It must change its attitude towards the use of English and Thai. One good example is taxation on signs and publications in English is at times 50% higher than the equivalent in Thai only . Why? There is no logical reason.They cannot live in this in between world of traditionalism and still expect to embrace the benefits of a world wide economy .Time to move on .
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Re: English to be second language

Post by Cheers » October 14, 2010, 8:47 am

I sincerely hope that if you are a teacher you have the proper accreditation and a valid work permit for where you are teaching if you are not a teacher BUTT OUT as the yanks would say OK!!
This discussion was about language not a personal attack on people with fake degrees from Canterbury University, or some other Mickey Mouse establishment......try to stick to the subject without getting personal.

Now...once again...do you have a legitimate source for your information? Saying that some "porfessor" told you isn't really enough to present things on this forum as factual....is it? Mind you, if it is, my wife told me that all farangs have to learn Thai by the end of the year or they will not get a visa renewal....believe that?

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Re: English to be second language

Post by ScorpioPower » October 14, 2010, 3:11 pm

Khun Paul, I found your post about the British Council paying 50% of foreign teacher salaries in T'land very interesting.

I can't see anything about this on the British Council website and even though they are a .org and not for profit, I just can't see them generating enough cash from their own efforts to pay this 50%. It must be a huge sum of money!

In which case, is the British taxpayer unknowingly contributing towards this fund and how might they feel if their tax pounds were going anywhere else other than to a UK national?

N.B. You don't really need to answer the second part of that question, because we both already know the answer!

;)

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Re: English to be second language

Post by Aardvark » October 14, 2010, 3:47 pm

Are you being Provocative SP ;)

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Re: English to be second language

Post by ScorpioPower » October 14, 2010, 4:09 pm

^ No, not at all!!!! :D

I just want to know where the British Council is getting such a huge sum of money from! :-k

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Re: English to be second language

Post by trubrit » October 14, 2010, 4:54 pm

trubrit wrote:
Khun Paul wrote: But then as with many things some speak before engaging brain. This includes Thai politicians and others.
[/color]

Well he did say. :lol: :lol: :lol: Wonder who he means by others? :-"
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Re: English to be second language

Post by parrot » October 14, 2010, 9:01 pm

"my wife told me that all farangs have to learn Thai by the end of the year or they will not get a visa renewal"

Something tells me I'll see this on the visa forum as the indisputable truth. Although this has just given me insight into folks like Rush/Bech etal can cherry pick their way to a grand headline!
Lest I be accused of spreading a rumor......there is no requirement for falangs to learn thai for a visa extension. (Not yet, anyway!)

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Re: English to be second language

Post by Cheers » October 16, 2010, 10:52 am

From reading all the posts on this thread, and after receiving a long winded missive that explained absolutely nothing, I have come to the conclusion that Khun Paul has posted his opinions without any recourse to facts or, indeed, common sense. I have scoured the internet looking for anything that remotely resembles a Thai preference towards British and Australian English over American English and have come up with nothing. Khun Paul you should be ashamed of yourself for submitting these ridiculous theories as factual and then damning everyone that questions you. It would appear that you are just a self opinionated windbag who enjoys the sound of his own voice. Please check your facts and sources before you put something on this forum as factual.

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