Wikileaks

[parrot]

KD, you paint a bleak picture of the average Joe back in the US. We just returned from a trip to the US......had occasion to meet/socialize with probably 100 or so people.......not a dumb one in the crowd. They're all professionals of one sort or another.....EMT, fireman, teacher, architect, carpet cleaner, high school student, elementary student, retired university professor, etc. I can't think of a single one we met who would say something like "I can see Russia from my house."
I could care less if the cashier at Tesco knows who the governor of Texas is......if she can't deal with an item with a missing price tag, she's worthless. I bought an item in a store in the US, the item was marked $10 on the shelf. The cashier rang up $14. I pointed out the difference. No questions, no hassle, no manager....she fixed it on the spot. I could care less if she thought that Bush was still president.
The US educational system may have its faults, but I'd be surprised if you'd be willing to invest your kids' future in Thai schools over those back in the US. Just my 2 baht

[snowball]

Parrot, in a democratic republic, where voting rights are no longer based on land ownership, gender, nor race, you ought to be concerned as much about the decision making skills of that Tesco cashier as any other citizen. He/She has the same power as you do.

When 84% of the populace of a country reject a fact such as evolution, you ought to be concerned about how this majority of the populace go about making decisions, since as I mentioned, they have the same power as you do to change the future of the country. IMO Americans seem to be getting more dogmatic in their beliefs rather than less so.

[snowball]

"where voting rights are no longer based on..." I am not trying to imply that those qualifications matter in how well you think.

[KHONDAHM]

Snowball, you absolutely get my point. The average Joe matters because the average Joe votes. That decision can and has changed the world. I recall a poll back in 2000 where a startling number of voters said they voted for Bush because he LOOKED Presidential. Another poll saying they voted for Bush because of Clinton's adultery and Gore was his VP. I could go on and on about examples of how the vote of so many dopey Americans has and continues to change the world. It does matter (!) and it is the sort of myopic mindset that says it doesn't matter which unleashes the wrath of the world's most powerful armies on a nation having nothing to do with 9/11, killing hundreds of thousands of innocents, soldiers, and wounding or otherwise changing the lives of countless more. It matters.

The fact that American media is ignoring Wikileaks' revelations matters. Over the past several weeks, I have yet to see any mention of Wikileaks' revelations discussed in the general media. At the same time, a typical news hour is still filled by 10 minutes of domestic news (a gloss over), 5 minutes of global news (the entire world in yes, 5 minutes), 10 minutes of human interest stories (how Becky is dealing with cancer, a dog saves it's owner, etc.), 10 minutes of sports and weather, 5 minutes of some local story that went national for no good reason (Jessica is missing in Idaho or a fire burned down an old building), and 20 minutes of commercials (!).

[parrot]

"you ought to be concerned as much about the decision making skills of that Tesco cashier as any other citizen."

Sure, I am! Like when xx% of a country vote in favor of gun ownership, I shake my head in disbelief. Or when xx% support a vice-presidential candidate without a clue, I can only wonder how. But if someone wants to belief that humans instantly appeared on the planet at the snap of a finger, that's up to them.....just as it's okay with me if they want to believe in transubstantiation or reincarnation. I'm not trying to say all's perfect in the US, but I reject KD's comparisons to rag collectors in the PI or the average Joe in Africa. The US has its share of faults, but a nation of dunces isn't one of them. The average person is concerned about their job, their salary, the price of things, their family, what's for supper, what's on TV, who's playing in the Super Bowl and what they're going to wear to work tomorrow....and maybe after all's said and done who's going to sit next to Michelle Obama at the State of the Union address. Whether Hu Jintao knew about the test flight of China's stealth fighter when he met with Secdef Gates probably doesn't rate as a high priority for most Americans. That doesn't make them stupid. Nor does it make someone smart if they know what the three biggest economies of the world after the US are. Does it really embarrass you if you meet someone who doesn't know that? Maybe you should preface your introductions with, "Hi, before I introduce myself, let me ask you a few questions so I can judge your knowledge of current affairs."
I don't know if Beck, O'Reilly, Olberman or Pat Robertson spew this stuff, but for all its faults, I find the US's glass more than half full.

[old-timer]

I would Put money on it. Especially about Africans. I recall several conversations when I was in both Sierra Leone and Kenya with ordinary folk just hanging about knowing exactly what was happening around the world and could even name almost every top leader in Washington, a few governors, and could argue with and even correct me about their policies and positions. I was astounded to say the least. You see, in those countries, most people do not have access to TV, so the ones who can, READ. They read everything (!). And those who can read have the responsibility to read aloud to those who cannot. So, please do not think that those plain folk in Africa are clueless. The average Joe Africa could certainly defeat average Joe American College Grad in any sort of current events quiz or debate. I would put money on that.

I also recall encountering a rag vendor in the Philippines who had never been to America but could correctly recall and elaborate on just about every significant event in American history, including dates. A rag vendor. He literally was selling clothing made from old sacks on the street.

You see, the problem is all the ethnocentrism that Americans are indoctrinated with throughout their lives coupled with the lazy box which pushes information out to them and the disappearance of things such as libraries and book stores. Other people spend their time reading if lazy media is unavailable and are far more aware of what goes on than pretty much most Americans.

I happen to be in the US as I type this. I just asked someone college educated, professional, and by all accounts the type who would appear to know a little something a few questions.

Where is Thailand? Somewhere near Japan.
Who are the two Senators for the state? Not sure, but names one who was defeated in a nearby State.
Name and rank the top 3 economies in the world other than the USA. China, Russia, and India.

I had to stop because it was embarrassing. Go ahead! Do your own testing!

bang on, well said.

OT........

[KHONDAHM]

@Parrot
There is a saying: "Deal with reality or reality will deal with you".

I really did not and do not want to believe that most Americans are clueless. It goes against what we are brainwashed to believe. We believe that because we have the most might, money, and other tools of influence we are better than the rest of the world. We believe that because we have nice neighborhoods and homes to live in, rule of law, and a government that takes care of it's citizenry we are more civilized than the rest of the world. We believe that developing countries are primitive and therefore it's citizenry could not possibly be on or above our level. We are indoctrinated with this way of thinking throughout our lives. That is a big part of the problem. Our elitist ethnocentristic myopia does not allow us to accept that we are FAILING miserably. If one were to graph almost any random measure of "success" over the past 50 years and compare that to other countries, the point becomes undeniable.

This is the reality. America, and indeed by extension the rest of the world, are dealing with these problems we created out of our ignorance. Now and for generations to come. All because we FAIL miserably at dealing with the reality that our citizenry is failing. Special interests have corrupted our government and so many institutions vital to our way of life. We accept things without protest that the founders foresaw and specifically wanted to prevent or avoid (Citizens United ruling, Patriot Acts, coinage, etc.). Yet we cling to our cable TVs which tell us we are better for it. So we believe it is true because it tells us it is true, otherwise the TV would not stand for it. Orwell was prophetic. That is reality. Deal with it or it will continue to deal with you and the rest of us.

[cookie]

NBC: U.S. can't link accused Army private to Assange

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41241414/ns ... id=twitter

U.S. military officials tell NBC News that investigators have been unable to make any direct connection between a jailed army private suspected with leaking secret documents and Julian Assange, founder of the whistleblowing website WikiLeaks.

whaaw,
it took them some time to get this...
even the torturing of private Bradley Manning didn´t help shame on them

Nothing at all has been proven against this patriot in a court of law,
but is apparently guilty until proven innocent
“Freedom and Justice For All”


and without a link to Manning, the US can't charge Assange with conspiracy under the Espionage Act.

Assange said long time ago that he "never heard of the name Bradley Manning before it was published in the press."
he said that WikiLeaks technology was designed such that sources of leaked information remain anonymous even to WikiLeaks itself.

[21again]

cookie said,

Assange said long time ago that he "never heard of the name Bradley Manning before it was published in the press."
he said that WikiLeaks technology was designed such that sources of leaked information remain anonymous even to WikiLeaks itself.

Well thats it for me then,Assange is admitting the Espionage, of which it is, hope he gets extradited now and joins that other traitor who just got 32 years for selling secrets to the chinese.

[maaka]

well said KD.

[jackspratt]

Fortunately the (somewhat flawed) US justice system has a higher threshold of guilt than you are happy to apply, 21. I am also struggling to see any admission in the passage you quote.

BTW, you can only be a "traitor" to your own country. Assange is Australian, and very few of us believe he is a traitor - to the contrary, it seems he is generally admired for what he has done, and continues to do. =D> =D> =D>

[nkstan]

Fortunately the (somewhat flawed) US justice system has a higher threshold of guilt than you are happy to apply, 21. I am also struggling to see any admission in the passage you quote.

BTW, you can only be a "traitor" to your own country. Assange is Australian, and very few of us believe he is a traitor - to the contrary, it seems he is generally admired for what he has done, and continues to do. =D> =D> =D>

I think the word traitoruos would apply to the army private,wouldn't you?But being that Assange is a hero to you,I guess that would make the private a traitorous hero to you.

[jackspratt]

I think you need to read again what 21 wrote, Stan.

And you may notice that I didn't mention Manning - why did you?

[cookie]

The officials say that while investigators have determined that Manning had allegedly unlawfully downloaded tens of thousands of documents onto his own computer and passed them to an unauthorized person, there is apparently no evidence he passed the files directly to Assange, or had any direct contact with the controversial WikiLeaks figure.

WikiLeaks seeks more media partners

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... 376b5b2751

WikiLeaks hopes to enlist as many as 60 news organizations from around the world in a bid to help speed the publication of its massive trove of secret U.S. diplomatic memos, the site's founder said Tuesday.

Assange said that all the newly recruited media organizations are being asked to agree to the same rules originally struck with The Times and other publications. The newspapers are asked to remove potentially harmful names or secrets that could endanger people's lives and those cables are then submitted to WikiLeaks. WikiLeaks in turn times the cables' release to coincide with the papers' articles.

2.

wikileaks to be copied by other news organisations =D> =D> =D> =D>
so more criminals, traitors,....in the make or more hero´s on the way =D> =D> =D>

ASSANGE WHO? NYT May Make It Easier For Leakers To Submit Documents Directly

The New York Times is considering creating an in-house submission system that could make it easier for leakers to provide documents to the paper.

It's a move that could effectively get rid of middlemen like Assange,

http://www.businessinsider.com/all-the- ... nts-2011-1

[KHONDAHM]

Just my 2 baht, but I would not be comfortable with submitting anything to any organization other than Wikileaks if I had something to put out there. Seems to be entirely too much pressure can be put on just about any US organization to silence its voice. Freedom of the press seems to have some fine print these days.

[snowball]

Hmmm, KD, you preempted me again I would not transfer sensitive information to any mainstream US media outlet. I would not doubt too much if instead of the information getting out I would wind up at the bottom of the Chesapeake with my beautiful new cement boots Why up until Wikileaks has there been almost no serious investigative reporting by US media? Since the Pentagon Papers almost nothing as important has come out. All the US mass media do is regurgitate what the government line is or their corporate masters insist upon.

[jingjai]

"Dealing With Assange and the Secrets He Spilled":

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/magaz ... ted=1&_r=1

[KHONDAHM]

Why up until Wikileaks has there been almost no serious investigative reporting by US media? Since the Pentagon Papers almost nothing as important has come out. All the US mass media do is regurgitate what the government line is or their corporate masters insist upon.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. They did a helluva job investigating the Blue Dress. Just the fact that everyone knows exactly what I am talking about proves the point(!) and proves that they haven't lost their effectiveness for informing the public about the grave transgressions perpetrated by our government when our leaders do not think anyone will find out.

[cookie]

The Internet service provider (ISP) hosting WikiLeaks' servers is fighting back against the European Data Retention Directive by running all customer traffic through an encrypted virtual private network (VPN) service before logging it.

The European Data Retention Directive, which was approved in 2006, aimed to identify the origin, time and means of communication for all Internet traffic to support investigations.

http://sverigesradio.se/

for those of us interested; this is the VPN that wikileaks is using:

https://www.ipredator.se/

new prediction:

these VPN´s will be banned soon
because big brother hates it when he can´t spy and / or control us.
these VPN´s will be illegal in a very short time!!!!

where is our private liberty?
where is our privacy???

Our right to privacy, to communicate in private,
to share information and/or be anonymous is a threat to big brother.
they are trying to redefine the law to suit their needs... .

but the solution seems easy to me:

if we all agree to make the Internet a neutral, free speech zone for all I am sure that we wouldn't have issues like these. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

[Laan Yaa Mo]

This seems rather naive since I doubt you will get 'everyone' to agree to your idea. In particular, I doubt you will get any government around the globe to join hands with you. Nice thought...but....