Online Business

Post by **Greg Ledder** » March 18, 2012, 6:09 am

Hi eveyone - another newbie seeking advice.....

I hope I'm posting in the right section here and if not, my apologies.

Firstly may I say what a great site this is - very informative and friendly!

My Thai girlfriend lives in Non Sang and I am hoping at some point to re-locate from the UK to Thailand to live with her.
She is opening a small 7/11 type shop soon and would like me to help her with day to day running as an unpaid assistant so to speak which I would be more than happy to do - however as this is one of the prohibited occupations for farang this is not going to be an option - more's the pity.

Here in the UK I run a small online business selling Prints through 'Amazon'. I have ascertained that I could still run this business from Thailand as long as I maintain a UK bank account but after asking this question on another forum it seems that it may not be possible to do this as I would need to be employing Thai's......as the business is just a one man operation working from home employing Thai's wouldnt be possible.

Obviously I don't want to be breaking any laws and I've read in another post on this forum that this is somewhat of a grey area - so I am hoping to get a few more opinions on this - does anyone else run a similar type of one man business in Thailand and if so how did you accomplish this legally?

Many thanks in advance,

Greg.

Post by **BobHelm** » March 18, 2012, 9:03 am

I can't see that you will get an answer to this question that will satisfy you & allow you to remain fully within the law in Thailand unless you want to embark on a test case through the courts that will probably cost more than any potential earnings amount to.
As you have already been advised it is a 'grey' area that I doubt has ever been tested through the courts.
Even if it had then the ruling would only apply if the specifics of the case were exactly the same as in your case. Lawyers have a knack of arguing that is never the case...

I think that you would get as many different answers from lawyers as lawyers asked.

A foreigner can only set up a legally registered company in Thailand if they own a maximum of 49% of the business. The other 51% of the business must be owned by active Thai partners. The active part has been tightened up by the authorities over the last couple of years, running a business with 'nominees' is a risky business & certainly illegal.
It is doubtful that anyone wishing to run a one man internet business in Thailand would find that route attractive anyway.

I think, in the main, that Immigration would not be interested in supplying an 'official' answer (something that you could rely on in court) as they would probably claim it was not their business unless you were applying for a B visa, in which case you would need a legally registered company as above.

I would think that any person who was actually doing this currently would be very reluctant to come on a Open Forum & attract attention to themselves by saying they were currently earning a wage in this way. Forums might have anonymity as far as other members are concerned, but everything leaves a trail when the authorities come calling!!
If they didn't attract attention to themselves & were not earning large sums of money then it is difficult to see how the authorities would ever discover what they were doing. Or, probably more importantly, have any interest in that what so ever.
If a person boasted continually that they were making a fortune in this manner, had Thailand possession to match their claims & were clearly flouting the laws of the land then they may well attract unwanted authority attention to themselves. However there are far easier & more certain ways open to the authorities of expelling individuals than bothering to pursue a 'grey area' working/not working case through the courts.

Post by **Jing Jing** » March 18, 2012, 10:48 am

This is may thought. Most Thais have small businesses that are not incorporated as a business. The OP girlfriend's mini mart is a small business which probably has no legal business structure. If everything was run through the mini mart and there is a westerner sitting at a computer how is anyone going to decide what is what. If you have adds in the BP or the Nation this may raise some red flags.
I guess as long as the prints are not "art prints"

there might not be any questions.

Post by **Prenders88** » March 18, 2012, 3:28 pm

Keep out your girlfriends mini mart.
Don't be seen filling selves, or sitting behind the counter.
It only takes a call to the Immigration Police from a competitor, or another ex-pat with an axe to grind, and you're in deep do-dah.

If in doubt pull out.

Post by **Jing Jing** » March 18, 2012, 8:49 pm

It only takes a call to the Immigration Police from a competitor, or another ex-pat with an axe to grind, and you're in deep do-dah.

So do you know of someone that this has happened to? I see many Thai women with a western bf/samee helping with their small businesses. I think the Labor Office has bigger problems then someone helping in a mini mart.

Post by **Asiaphile** » March 18, 2012, 9:43 pm

Jing Jing wrote:So do you know of someone that this has happened to? I see many Thai women with a western bf/samee helping with their small businesses. I think the Labor Office has bigger problems then someone helping in a mini mart.

There have been various stories in the press. A two-second Google search produced this one: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/387 ... ge__st__75

A friend of mine was arrested in his wife's bar right here in Udon while he was sitting at a table in the bar with some friends. Immigration visited the bar and asked for the "boss." His wife not being present at that particular moment, the girls pointed to my friend, and this was reason enough for the police to arrest him because he didn't have a work-permit.

Post by **Greg Ledder** » March 19, 2012, 2:10 am

Thank you for your replies everyone - very much appreciated - I see what is meant by a 'Grey Area'........hell, things are so complicated in Thailand!!!!!

Post by **BobHelm** » March 19, 2012, 8:20 am

I think the 'remote working' is a grey area in every country, not just Thailand, Greg.
Most countries seem to have rather settled down to ignoring the 'work permit' side of it for foreigners & just concentrated on ensuring that if their nationals are living abroad & doing it then they (the Government) are still getting their cut of tax...

That seems to be the concern of many of the employers/customers of remote workers, that they are not endorsing tax evasion & risking Governments coming after them.
If, in your example, you were actually paying tax, of some sort, in the UK then I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for another country to suggest that was not your legal place of employment.

You might want to consider setting yourself up as a 'sole trader' in the UK before you came to Thailand. You could, for example, use that to continue to pay your National Insurance contributions in the UK if you still need to do that in order to claim full benefits later.
Income Tax would be an issue that you would need to investigate carefully as to where your liabilities started & how your income was calculated...
You could probably slip under the VAT net unless you were very well rewarded..

Post by **Jing Jing** » March 19, 2012, 9:18 am

I think many people from the west are used to living in societies that require you to wear a belt with your suspenders.
You are right to say it is very grey area and the Thais like to live in that grey area. Ask at the Labor Office if you need a work permit to teach English from home -they will roll their eyes. It is almost impossible to provide the paperwork that is required to have a work permit for teaching at home. So far I have not heard of any teachers being questioned by Immigration or Labor.

Go to Macro and see the number of expats with a Thai women buying supplies for their mini marts. I guess Immigration has not figured this is going on

The stories we always see is a friend of a friend or a bar.

A bar is a red flag to start with. Not only does it require a work permits but also requires a liquor license More often then not this is some type of shake down - easy tea money.

Post by **Asiaphile** » March 19, 2012, 11:52 am

Jing Jing wrote:
It only takes a call to the Immigration Police from a competitor, or another ex-pat with an axe to grind, and you're in deep do-dah.

So do you know of someone that this has happened to? I see many Thai women with a western bf/samee helping with their small businesses. I think the Labor Office has bigger problems then someone helping in a mini mart.

Providing proof to such questions is like pissing in the wind. Once the evidence has been given, these disputatious people will then try to disqualify it.
Yes, of course you CAN teach English at home and of course you CAN help your wife in the shop. However, is it LEGAL? THAT IS THE GIST OF THIS THREAD.

So far I have not heard of any teachers being questioned by Immigration or Labor.

So that's the conclusive evidence? Because YOU haven't heard of it it doesn't happen?

I see many Thai women with a western bf/samee helping with their small businesses. I think the Labor Office has bigger problems then someone helping in a mini mart

Everyday I see tons of motorist going against the flow of the traffic, running red lights or speeding, but does that make it legal?
What happens if a jealous Thai teacher who also happens to supplement her income with private English classes finds out that her students switch over to you, or a Thai shopkeeper who sees his sales going down, because your wife has opened a shop in the same street, go to the police to complain that you are working?

Post by **Chriss** » March 19, 2012, 2:09 pm

Greg,

I've been working this way for many years, I work through email and the internet with companies in the UK, Australia and US. As everyone says it is a very grey area, to the point that I have had different responses from various Bangkok legal companies, some saying you need a work permit to carry out ANY work while you are in Thailand and it matters not that you are working for an overseas company and being paid in a currency other than Baht into a foreign bank, others saying as long as you do not work with or for a Thai company or are paid for any work directly into a Thai bank you are OK.. One company actually told me if I was visiting Thailand for a business meeting I would officially need a Non Imm B and a work permit, but I think that's going a bit too far, you never know though.
A friend in Bangkok has an online business and says as long as you don't make it too obvious that you are working, as mentioned, ads in national newspaper etc you should be OK. He has the income from this work sent from his UK bank every month to comply with the marriage visa rules.
As for helping in your GF's shop, my wife had a shop similar some years back and I was spoken to by a local senior BiB who saw me stocking the fridge. He's also a neighbour so it was just a friendly warning from him.
I actually do know an American who was banged up overnight and fined (not sure how much) for serving beer from behind his / his wifes bar in Patters. Scare tactic or not I don't know but they told him he could have been kicked out of the country.

Post by **Greg Ledder** » March 19, 2012, 3:46 pm

BobHelm wrote:I think the 'remote working' is a grey area in every country, not just Thailand, Greg.
Most countries seem to have rather settled down to ignoring the 'work permit' side of it for foreigners & just concentrated on ensuring that if their nationals are living abroad & doing it then they (the Government) are still getting their cut of tax...

That seems to be the concern of many of the employers/customers of remote workers, that they are not endorsing tax evasion & risking Governments coming after them.
If, in your example, you were actually paying tax, of some sort, in the UK then I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for another country to suggest that was not your legal place of employment.

You might want to consider setting yourself up as a 'sole trader' in the UK before you came to Thailand. You could, for example, use that to continue to pay your National Insurance contributions in the UK if you still need to do that in order to claim full benefits later.
Income Tax would be an issue that you would need to investigate carefully as to where your liabilities started & how your income was calculated...
You could probably slip under the VAT net unless you were very well rewarded..

Hi Bob,

Many thanks for your reply!
I am legal and above board in the Uk - my business is fairly new so at the moment I'm not earning enough to pay tax but once my earnings are above the Tax threshold (thankfully they are rising steadily!) the tax man will have his pound of flesh.
I am paying voluntary NI contributions and my Amazon earnings go directly into my UK bank account and wouldn't be going into a Thai account.
There may be hope yet..........

Post by **Greg Ledder** » March 19, 2012, 3:54 pm

Chriss wrote:Greg,

I've been working this way for many years, I work through email and the internet with companies in the UK, Australia and US. As everyone says it is a very grey area, to the point that I have had different responses from various Bangkok legal companies, some saying you need a work permit to carry out ANY work while you are in Thailand and it matters not that you are working for an overseas company and being paid in a currency other than Baht into a foreign bank, others saying as long as you do not work with or for a Thai company or are paid for any work directly into a Thai bank you are OK.. One company actually told me if I was visiting Thailand for a business meeting I would officially need a Non Imm B and a work permit, but I think that's going a bit too far, you never know though.
A friend in Bangkok has an online business and says as long as you don't make it too obvious that you are working, as mentioned, ads in national newspaper etc you should be OK. He has the income from this work sent from his UK bank every month to comply with the marriage visa rules.
As for helping in your GF's shop, my wife had a shop similar some years back and I was spoken to by a local senior BiB who saw me stocking the fridge. He's also a neighbour so it was just a friendly warning from him.
I actually do know an American who was banged up overnight and fined (not sure how much) for serving beer from behind his / his wifes bar in Patters. Scare tactic or not I don't know but they told him he could have been kicked out of the country.

Thanks Chriss - your input is much appreciated.
As all my business is done through Amazon there would be no advertising so it would not be blatantly obvious that I was running a business. All legal and above board in th UK so not upsetting the tax man!
You guys have given me plenty to think about......thank you!!

Post by **Greg Ledder** » March 19, 2012, 4:03 pm

Jing Jing wrote:This is may thought. Most Thais have small businesses that are not incorporated as a business. The OP girlfriend's mini mart is a small business which probably has no legal business structure. If everything was run through the mini mart and there is a westerner sitting at a computer how is anyone going to decide what is what. If you have adds in the BP or the Nation this may raise some red flags.
I guess as long as the prints are not "art prints" there might not be any questions.

Hi Jing Jing,

Ha ha! Don't worry - my prints are not 'Art Prints'

- they are taken from vintage advertising posters / comic covers / Travel posters etc etc - not offensive in anyway!

Cheers,

Greg.

Post by **golfer678** » May 28, 2012, 1:48 pm

i had an on line business in udon, now closed as the thais took everything...
i did not have a work permit, am on a retirement visa, do not have a wife,
just took a chance
in my way of thinking, if i was arrested, i would just pay the 10,000 baht and go home
also in my thinking, who is going to catch you?
if you just run this fromhome, alone, who is to know?
just3 do not piss off your wife
besides, in looking into it, I found the laws contradicting each other and very complicated.
good luck

Post by **Greg Ledder** » July 13, 2012, 4:33 pm

golfer678 wrote:i had an on line business in udon, now closed as the thais took everything...
i did not have a work permit, am on a retirement visa, do not have a wife,
just took a chance
in my way of thinking, if i was arrested, i would just pay the 10,000 baht and go home
also in my thinking, who is going to catch you?
if you just run this fromhome, alone, who is to know?
just3 do not piss off your wife
besides, in looking into it, I found the laws contradicting each other and very complicated.
good luck

Many thanks for your reply - plenty to think about!!

All the best,

Greg