Different deeds in Thailand

[KB_Texas]

Could some of you old hands give me a heads up on the different deed types In Thailand, and what to look out for when buying land?

There are a bunch of threads stating a lot of things, but nowhere that I could find where the different types were laid out, and which types were the types we need to have. I did see the sticky on usufructs(sp) and it identified two types of deed needed. Can someone explain what these are?

Are there any other issues that we should be aware of before plunking down a large sum of cash for land? I know in the States you need to get a test to see if the land will perk for septic, etc. Are there things here that need to be done?

Thanks for any info.
KB

[parrot]

KB,
deed info at http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/th ... -deeds.php

We've bought two pieces of land......had to have both surveyed before purchasing. That's all. No legal fees, no perk tests.
It would be helpful to know a bit of history about the piece of land....was it a ricefield before a housing development, or a dumping place for scrap concrete - then filled over with a thin layer of soil (near the airport).
If you're buying outside the city, be aware that it still seems common for someone to raise their land up higher than the immediate neighbor. That will affect your drainage and may damage you perimeter wall (if you have one) over time.
Our biggest fear of moving out in the countryside was that a pig/chicken farmer would set up shop nearby. That hasn't happened, but we knew one British guy (kilo 19 on the SakhonNakhon Hwy) whose neighbor started raising pigs 20' from the Brit guy's property line.
Good luck hunting!

[fatbob]

As Parrot says survey the land and make sure the land your looking at is the same land as on the title. I would only buy land with a Nor Sor Sum(3) or Chanote title, nothing else would I buy.

Nothing you can do if your neighbor wants to start a pig farm, it happened to me! We have sixteen rai of peace and quiet for my retirement, about five years ago when we had just finished building the first stage of our house, building started on our neighbors land right on our boundary, apart from being a sh-t looking structure it was quickly full of smelly pigs, suddenly sitting on my back balcony with a cold beer was off limits, it was horrendous, all the neighbors were pi--ed off but nobody would do anything because the owner was a big policeman in Udon. I ended up getting a tractor in and pushed up a 1.5 metre high by 2 metre wide running full length of the boundary mound of soil and planted bamboo all the way across, blocked the view, not the smell! Unfortunately I had to get back to work in Phuket, upon my next visit all the pigs had suddenly died and the piggery was torn down, you can get lucky sometimes!

[Aardvark]

As Parrot says survey the land and make sure the land your looking at is the same land as on the title. I would only buy land with a Nor Sor Sum(3) or Chanote title, nothing else would I buy.

Nothing you can do if your neighbor wants to start a pig farm, it happened to me! We have sixteen rai of peace and quiet for my retirement, about five years ago when we had just finished building the first stage of our house, building started on our neighbors land right on our boundary, apart from being a sh-t looking structure it was quickly full of smelly pigs, suddenly sitting on my back balcony with a cold beer was off limits, it was horrendous, all the neighbors were pi--ed off but nobody would do anything because the owner was a big policeman in Udon. I ended up getting a tractor in and pushed up a 1.5 metre high by 2 metre wide running full length of the boundary mound of soil and planted bamboo all the way across, blocked the view, not the smell! Unfortunately I had to get back to work in Phuket, upon my next visit all the pigs had suddenly died and the piggery was torn down, you can get lucky sometimes!

Your Thai Neibours took care of the problem for you :-"

[KB_Texas]

Thanks guys....we will see. Nothing more than looking at this point, but nice to know what questions to ask before you look.

KB

[KB_Texas]

Your Thai Neibours took care of the problem for you :-"

Heh, I thought the same thing.

KB

[fatbob]

I did post this story before on a thread somewhere on UM. It sure sounds a bit dodgy on my part, I didn't, but I can assure you just before retirement I would have! 555.

Go the Hawks!!!

[maaka]

You cannot have followed Thai news for the past 3 weeks and not have read about the problem faced by General Surayud (former Thai Prime Minister and Member of the Royal Privy Council) in relation to his Khao Yai land.

A lot of the articles published in the national press contained mistakes and inexactitude especially in relation to the rights General Surayud wife had on the controversial land. In many articles the journalists have used words such as “Own”,” Owner”, “deed” which are incorrect in this context. According the Bangkok Post of this morning General Surayud wife only applied and obtained a Por. Tor. Bor. 5 on this land.

Now a Por. Tor. Bor. 5, is nothing more than a document providing no actual evidence for a claim to land, but merely serving to establish that a person occupying a piece of land has been issued a tax number and has paid taxes for utilizing the land.

The issuance of Por. Tor. Bor. 5 is done without any survey by the authorities and grants no claim to the occupant. The document can be used as evidence towards proving possession against other private individuals, but not against the State. The tax number may be transferred to another person along with the physical possession of the land, but this transfer grants no rights to the transferee on the land against the State.

Another issue which has not been yet been discussed is that as far as I understand no official permission to build a house may be granted on Por.Tor.Bor.5 land. While its common practice for Thai people to build homes on Por. Tor. Bor. 5, those houses are built without any official permission.

[maaka]

above is an old quote August 2012

[maaka]

For any real estate transactions in Thailand, you should verify the Title Deeds. We have seen people that think the house is on their land, while the house was on the neighbour's land. Others thinking they had X Rai... while they had less. Some believe they are full owner, while they only have possessory rights. You also have to be sure to deal with the legal owner of this property or his/her fully legal representative.

You won't be able to register some agreements and rights, like a lease, superficies or a usufruct on land below Nor Sor Sam (certificate of use). So, it's important for you to know what the Title Deed of the property is, in order to foresee all your options.

Black, Green, and Red Garuda (The Garuda is a large methical bird and symbol of Thailand) are appearing on the title deeds and categorized into:
Possessory rights like Por Bor Tor
Pre-emption, called “Nor Sor 2, Nor Sor 2 Gor”,
Certificate of use, called “Nor Sor 3, Nor Sor 3 Gor, Nor Sor 3 Kor, and
Chanote (or Nor Sor 4) and designated by Ministerial Regulation no.43 (B.E.2537) pursuant to Land Code Act B.E.2497, clause 2, 4 and 13 respectively are; This type of title grants the holder of this document the full rights over the land. Thus, if you are planning to buy land in Thailand, this type of title deed is the best option.
**The land in Thailand is measured with Rai, Ngan and Talang Wah. See the articles about "Thai measurements" in our menu.

Possessory rights

This type of Title Deed is the least recommended. A land with a possessory right has never been substantiated by Department, but is only recognized by tax payments at the Local Administrative Office. It means that a person is the "possessor", pays taxes, but the real owner is the government. Slowly, the government is changing these old title deeds into Chanotte..or Nor Sor Sam, where the owner of the land is the REAL owner, and the land is clearly delimitated. On possessory rights, you can't register rights like usufruct or a lease. Also you can't get a building permit but it's very common for Thai people to build houses on these Title Deeds without any building permits. Examples of possessory rights are Por Bor Tor or Sor Kor. A land with this type of Title Deed will have much lesser value than a land with a Nor Sor Sam or Chanotte.

Kor 1.

A Sor Kor is a kind of notification to show who has possession of the land. Be careful, if someone else occupies the land, this person might have a better right. Some basic form of possession, like a fence or a small house can show who has actual possession of the house and will be permitted.

Pre-emption

A Black Garuda appears on a Pre-emption document, called “Nor Sor 2 and Nor Sor 2 Gor, and on a certificate of use, called “Nor Sor 3 and Nor Sor 3 Kor. - The issuance of Nor Sor 2 is for the area where a Minister has not made an announcement of Termination of authority of District chief, District Director or Deputy District Director.(District Director or Deputy District Director who is the chief of a sub-district are authorities) - The issuance of Nor Sor 2 Gor is for the area where a Minister has made an announcement of Termination of authority of District chief, District Director or Deputy District Director.(Land authority, Provincial land authority are authorities)

Nor.Kor.3

This is a document issued to a selected member of the self development community, from the Department of Social Development and Welfare. You could see these documents after the government upgrade some title deeds. It is normally given when the owner (member) use this land for over 5 years and paid back all taxes and debts for the land. Then, he receives this letter of land utilization (Nor.Kor.3) as evidence. With this document, you can bring it to the land department to issue a Chanotte.

Certificate of use

The issuance of certificate of use Nor Sor 3 is for an area not measured the boundaries by government authority, hence the land has no exact boundaries. Therefore, you can have some problems with the neighbors claiming a part of what you think is yours. However, Nor Sor 3 may later be upgraded to a Nor Sor 3 Gor, then Chanote in the future.The Minister has not made an announcement of Termination of authority of District chief, District Director or Deputy District Director.(District Director or Deputy District Director who is the chief of a sub-district are authorities). Owners of these Title Deeds appear on the Title Deed and they have the right to occupy the land and use it for their benefits.
The issuance of a certificate of use Nor Sor 3 Kor is for an area that has never been measured using satellite image as same as Nor Sor 3. But the land that has been measured by the Land Department; therefore, it has its exact boundaries. The owner knows exactly what he owns. This type of land may be sold, transferred, or mortgaged, the same as a Chanotte. The owner of the land may file a petition to the Land Department demanding to change it to a full Title Deed (Chanote), and the Land Department may do so if there is no opposition made against the petition.
A Garuda appears on a certificate of use, also known as Nor Sor 3. The land is measured by using an aerial survey to set parcel points and land areas on the map. A certificate of use is a very good title deed, even if the land has not been measured with the same as a Chanotte.

Chanotte (or Chanot, Channot)
Normally a Red Garuda appears on a chanotte. It’s the best title deed in Thailand and gives you full rights.

[fatbob]

Geez Makka, you could have said all that in one paragraph, get your land surveyed by the land department, only purchase land that has Nor Sor Sum or Chanote title, get a reputal lawyer to to all, dont try and save a little to do it yourself.

[parrot]

The good people at Siam City Law Offices Ltd have provided a 5-part series in the Bangkok Post concerning property in Thailand.
Today's article is the 5th .... http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investi ... and-rights

When we bought our two pieces of land, we didn't use a lawyer (I'm not suggesting you should or shouldn't). On the first piece, we bought from an Army officer (at that time). His wife accompanied us to the land office and called her husband when it was time to sign the papers. He came in civilian clothes. In he walked, up to the window where his wife was waiting, took a pen and signed the papers that were laid out on the counter. The clerk promptly pronounced the signature incorrect and asked for another signature. That's when the neighbor told the clerk that a number of years previous, a monk had told him that his signature needed work. He practiced with the monk until the monk declared it worthy of good juju.
Unfortunately for the neighbor the signature on the land paper was his old signature. After relating the story to the clerk, the neighbor was told to practice his old signature on a scrap of paper. After several attempts, the clerk declared it acceptable, and the neighbor signed over the deed.

Another slice of Thailand.

[KB_Texas]

Heh, so Parrot, did the buyer back out of the deal because the signature was bad juju?

Thanks for all the info guys. I think I have the basics to ask, and the things to look for. I appreciate the info!

KB

[maaka]

sorry coxo but the dude did ask, so I left him with no doubt..
its easy for you old hands, but tor bor nor sor kor 233 is all perplexing to some..

[parrot]

Didn't back out......and no bad juju. As my wife and I like to say, แผ่นดินของเราไม่มีผี มีแต่เทวดา
No ghosts on our land, only good spirits/angels.

[udonthani]

I have just read this very interesting article in Bangkok Post, and I think this would be of interess for other too, Y oy can get the remaining notes from BKK Post
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investi ... ong-leases
So my friends, look up for this topic

[udonthani]

more about land in Thailand.
This is no 13 in a row of very interesting notes concrening land and deeds
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investi ... -re-buying