usufruct in Udon

Post by **mrmazinkle** » June 28, 2013, 2:23 pm

Hi ..Finally found a piece of land to build.Just over 2 ngarn(half rai).Went to land office in Udon to register with the Thai gf...was told unanble to register usufruct without a house book>Is this correct or are they wanting an iron lung?As soon as the build starts can I apply for the house book or does it have to be the finished product.if that is the case can I build a very very small dwelling and she can say she lives there?thanks for any replies.Thomas.

Post by **semperfiguy** » June 28, 2013, 5:29 pm

I'm not a lawyer but I have read up on the Usufruct since I registered one on the house and lot that I bought for my wife. If buying a lot/house in a residential development the house and lot has to be in the name of the Thai and the Usufruct can be registered in your name so that you can have the full benefit of the improvements for life. In your case the land has to be in your GF's name, but the future improvement can be titled in your name. So, rather than build a house and put that improvement in her name while registering a Usufruct in your name, perhaps the wisest option for you would be to put the home in your name, especially since your mate is only your GF. I'd be thinking about protecting my investment in case things go south with the relationship. I wouldn't bank on a Usufruct protecting your investment if you are not legally married. Spend a few baht and see an attorney for good measure.

Post by **mrmazinkle** » June 28, 2013, 5:36 pm

I still need the usufruct though..I can't have the house without the rights to the land it stands on...I really wanted to know if anyone
had ever made an usufruct in UDON on the land only..I have also read about usufructs and the law states you can but then its seems to be at the whim of the head honcho at the land office...Amazing Thailand...Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Post by **WhoUrDaddy** » June 28, 2013, 6:06 pm

You should of gotten the userfunct. Little lady has 6 rai, we split into 5 separate lots,I hold a userfunct on each one. House is only built on the one lot.

When you get the userfunct, you want to 'use and modify'.

Hope that helps, go back and tell them that's what you want.

Side thought, and don't take this the wrong way. Did you understand this from the agent working or was this simply what the little lady told you they said?

Ok, back to HermitVille.

Post by **semperfiguy** » June 28, 2013, 6:29 pm

Mr. Mazinkle, you sound like a smart guy, but if you have any doubts at all about the direction you are headed you may want to read through all the posts on the following thread and watch the entire video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2lSOix8vyE

http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/h ... 28910.html

Don't mean to be critical and negative, but just want to make sure you protect yourself properly. There's some great advice here from guys that have already "been there...done that"!

Post by **WBU ALUM** » June 28, 2013, 6:37 pm

mrmazinkle wrote:Hi ..Finally found a piece of land to build.Just over 2 ngarn(half rai).Went to land office in Udon to register with the Thai gf...was told unanble to register usufruct without a house book>Is this correct or are they wanting an iron lung?As soon as the build starts can I apply for the house book or does it have to be the finished product.if that is the case can I build a very very small dwelling and she can say she lives there?thanks for any replies.Thomas.

You need to enroll in Water Buffalo University.

The faculty there could have had you on the straight and narrow from jump. I am a graduate, and it saved me so much grief.

Post by **mrmazinkle** » June 28, 2013, 8:54 pm

WhoUrDaddy wrote:You should of gotten the userfunct. Little lady has 6 rai, we split into 5 separate lots,I hold a userfunct on each one. House is only built on the one lot.

When you get the userfunct, you want to 'use and modify'.

Hope that helps, go back and tell them that's what you want.

Side thought, and don't take this the wrong way. Did you understand this from the agent working or was this simply what the little lady told you they said?

Ok, back to HermitVille.

No.we went to the land office together.The gy whom we did the transaction with said not without the book.My Thai is above average so I alone walked over to the Hua naa's desk introduced myself very politely then asked him if this indeed was the case..He affirmed it.I read on one of the lawyers sites that it sems to be at the discretion of the head of the land office>Thtas why I thought they were stalling for a bung..Amazin

Post by **mrmazinkle** » June 28, 2013, 8:57 pm

WBU ALUM wrote:
mrmazinkle wrote:Hi ..Finally found a piece of land to build.Just over 2 ngarn(half rai).Went to land office in Udon to register with the Thai gf...was told unanble to register usufruct without a house book>Is this correct or are they wanting an iron lung?As soon as the build starts can I apply for the house book or does it have to be the finished product.if that is the case can I build a very very small dwelling and she can say she lives there?thanks for any replies.Thomas.
You need to enroll in Water Buffalo University.

The faculty there could have had you on the straight and narrow from jump. I am a graduate, and it saved me so much grief.

What are you a graduate in exactly?..your post makes no sense..Facukty?from jump?WTF?

Post by **WhoUrDaddy** » June 28, 2013, 10:31 pm

We did it just shy of 2 years ago, no problems or minor speed bumps. bought the land late 2010, land office came out and chopped it up from one 6 + rai lot, to 4 one rai lots, and the rest for home to be built in april 2011. 2 months later, paperwork was ready, they called, back to land office, everything typed up, checked, then a usufunct put on each of them. 5 total, 4 empty lots, one with house being built, which wasn't done till Dec 2011, and house book issued about the same time.............so no house / blue book was necessary. the form is generic, fill in the blanks, you talk, land agent types, and it prints out in thai. basically states you are permitted to use and modify land and any structures. I think all done, cost 70 baht each, don't quote me, and no need for any lawyer.

never a second thought by anyone. also had same done about early 2007, when land/house sold from ex, to new GF, and I had to cancel the previous one on that chanote before transfer to GF could take place, and a new one was added to new chanote. Also had to cancel usufrunt on that one, when house was sold again, before it could be tranfered to new owners, less than a year later.

leases are useless, and can be cancelled one year after divorce by ex wife, whether it's for 30 years on not. don't let anyone tell you different. i'm not sure if usufrunts are good for life any more, but 30 years is plenty. JUST ASKED LITTLE LADY, and she agrees, they said 'for life' isn't used any more. so might of been the stumbling block you incurred, if that is all you were asking for. go back and ask for a 30 year one if that is the case, or what ever they will approve, depending on age, it may not matter.

and if you really want to protect yourself, get power of attorney from the wife, to sell at your discretion, which when sold for ex to new GF, that is what was used. 3 copies signed, one filled out, 2 blank, but signed and verified. which was necessary, as filled out one was rejected, land agent not agreeing with the wording. so a blank one was produced, and we simply asked him what would be appropriate.

to further protect myself, I had video of her signing all three POA. along with the 'notorizing' signatures, which is actually any 2 witnesses. which leaves the use of POA open for much fraud, and sure many have lost land because of it. HENCE, THE VIDEO ON DVD, with commentary.

GOOD LUCK.

Post by **goshawk** » June 28, 2013, 11:22 pm

Thanks LA

Post by **nel123** » June 29, 2013, 12:42 am

Ah.... You can't beat good old fashion trust! If I felt the need for a userfuk I wouldn't be with the woman to begin with.

Post by **KHONDAHM** » June 29, 2013, 5:23 am

nel123 wrote:Ah.... You can't beat good old fashion trust! If I felt the need for a userfuk I wouldn't be with the woman to begin with.

That is a very narrow reason for getting a usufruct.

I'm married and have always trusted my wife without reservation. EVERYTHING is in her name and I would not want it any other way. Still, we did the usufruct because if something happens to her, the land doesn't go to me. It can't. I never formally adopted my daughter (a minor) and my son had not been born. So, the land could have "potentially" ended up being controlled by someone other than my daughter. To circumvent any of several legal scenarios, we did the usufruct for a few baht and a lifetime of peace of mind.

Post by **semperfiguy** » June 29, 2013, 6:01 am

KHONDAHM wrote:
nel123 wrote:Ah.... You can't beat good old fashion trust! If I felt the need for a userfuk I wouldn't be with the woman to begin with.
That is a very narrow reason for getting a usufruct.

I'm married and have always trusted my wife without reservation. EVERYTHING is in her name and I would not want it any other way. Still, we did the usufruct because if something happens to her, the land doesn't go to me. It can't. I never formally adopted my daughter (a minor) and my son had not been born. So, the land could have "potentially" ended up being controlled by someone other than my daughter. To circumvent any of several legal scenarios, we did the usufruct for a few baht and a lifetime of peace of mind.

Khondahm, just curious about this point in red above. If your wife has executed a Last Will and Testament and willed the land to you 100%, as a falang you have a legal right to inherit the property but it has to be sold within a certain time frame (can't remember the exact timing). If your wife has no Will then it would naturally go to the daughter as you have said...or in-laws at the discretion of the court until your daughter becomes of legal age. I could very well be wrong but would like to hear your further comment on the matter since it may call into question the validity of my own wife's Will.

Post by **merchant seaman** » June 29, 2013, 6:18 am

You are correct SFG. I believe you have 2-2 1/2 years to sell or transfer ownerhip of the land. I have been told that farangs have kept the land in their name much longer as it is uually not followed up on by any Gov't agency. I'm like nel123, why would you marry or put it in someones name you don't trust.

Post by **papaguido** » June 29, 2013, 7:11 am

Sourced from Thai Law Online...

http://www.thailawonline.com/en/family/ ... wills.html

Post by **mrmazinkle** » June 29, 2013, 7:58 am

KHONDAHM wrote:
nel123 wrote:Ah.... You can't beat good old fashion trust! If I felt the need for a userfuk I wouldn't be with the woman to begin with.
That is a very narrow reason for getting a usufruct.

I'm married and have always trusted my wife without reservation. EVERYTHING is in her name and I would not want it any other way. Still, we did the usufruct because if something happens to her, the land doesn't go to me. It can't. I never formally adopted my daughter (a minor) and my son had not been born. So, the land could have "potentially" ended up being controlled by someone other than my daughter. To circumvent any of several legal scenarios, we did the usufruct for a few baht and a lifetime of peace of mind.

You beat me to it.It amazes me how many people troll here.Anyhow a update..was told when workmen come and build to live on site take a photo of accomodation.that is enough for gf to make a house book.I appreciate all who say be carefu here> have been coming here for 15 years,Lived here for 7.Heard all the horror stories.It has been duly noted NEVER invest more than you can afford to walk away from..thanks for all the honest replies..Thomas

Post by **maaka** » June 29, 2013, 8:14 am

from what I gather, and looking at Siam Legal .com, a usufruct can be issued to land, and not just a house..it a lease in another form, and can run for 30yrs, you have the same rights as a landowner, but dont own it, as a farang can never own it, only lease it or have certain rights over it...it always up to the descretion of the Land Office if you get one..they seem to want a house book in this instance, but I would question whether the land has title, a charnote, and is not still crown land..maybe the Land Office wants some sort of proof of ownership, and in this instance they are asking for a house book...but from my ascertation of the matter, bare land should be able to have a usufruct..check with a lawyer at Siam Lawyers.com , email them..

Post by **mrmazinkle** » June 29, 2013, 9:48 am

we have the chanote..We changed the name on it 5 days ago>I will email them but I am sure that whatever they say it will be difficult to tell the Thai boss in the land office that this IS the law.same with everything her I spose it's all at the whim of a government employee.Thanks again...

Post by **maaka** » June 29, 2013, 10:34 am

I will just rework my second to last sentence..
' bare land should be able to have a usufruct, as long as the owner has title, and it is not common land (Tor Bor Land,) crown land, owned by His Royal Highness.....

thats how I see it..
I have had a farang and a Thai try and sell me the wifes land before, but in the end they didnt have title, they assumed that because papa lived on it all his life, it was papa's, when in fact it was still owned by the Crown..

Now you have a Charnote, and proof of ownership ( wifes ), you might have some success, but as Siam Legal point out, its depends on the Land Office descretion. Hiring a lawyer to liase with the Land Office might just unjam things alittle..

Post by **semperfiguy** » June 29, 2013, 10:44 am

mrmazinkle wrote:we have the chanote..We changed the name on it 5 days ago>I will email them but I am sure that whatever they say it will be difficult to tell the Thai boss in the land office that this IS the law.same with everything her I spose it's all at the whim of a government employee.Thanks again...

Yea, the Thai boss has already given you his verdict, so for him to accept your interpretation and be put in a position that compromises his decision would be a loss of face for him. Best bet is to find another person to take you in the back door. Squires Consultants has an office in Baan San Sa-Ran where I live, and I know that she has helped many people with closings in this village. She is supposedly well connected in the Land Office and can walk you through easily. You might want to give her a call and see what she says on the matter.

Squires Consultants

Squires Consultants in Soi 11 Baan San Sa-Ran. (Lake Garden City) Nong Bua.
A fluent English speaking lady runs the company. Chuthamat Squires (Roong) Tel/Fax 042-931966