Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

[WhoUrDaddy]

Its your country day on the 4th. Have a great time and raise a glass,if not to my Queen, then to the President.Whats his name? Obama?

I'd much rather tip my glass to Queenie...........of Canada..... Anyone except o'idiot. His only legacy is continuing the bush legacy, and didn't care much for him either.

[Quanteen]

Continually criticizing others allows one to take solace from his own dreadful state of affairs. It's therapeutic and allows some to feel better about themselves. It's sorely needed. What they fail to understand is that by tripping the fastest runner, they're not improving their own time. They are still not the fastest and they're revealed for the shallow, sad, poor-sports they are. They're desperate to find something that gives them satisfaction and taking whacks at the tall poppy is gratifying. When exposed for being hypocrites, they stick to the narrative of being critical of themselves (they're not) and that they generally like those who they criticize (they don't). Remember hypocrisy -- off a duck's back.

There's a reverse side of this phenomenon. The tall poppy can be unafraid of introspection -- even to the point of fierce disagreement. There is a reason members of the world's mightiest power don't feel this irresistible urge to lash out and criticize every misstep by every other government on the globe. They don't derive the same juvenile pleasure because they're operating from a higher plateau psychologically. There is no higher power to slag -- the brain's pleasure center's aren't stimulated by the superior telling the inferior anything. It's like students setting up a website to slag off their teachers anonymously. The teachers might read it, but have no interest in slagging off the students -- even if most of them are window-lickers. A different plateau.

In closing, I understand exactly where you're coming from tb. You certainly don't have to apologize for droning on about America's spy programs, and suggesting the imminent collapse of the tall boys. And we understand why you really, really don't want to discuss why the UK does exactly the same thing. That would require some creativity and a little dancing. At your advance age and frail self-esteem, the kind Americans are willing to humor you. (wink, wink) So rail away! And rest assured those whom you chastise daily will, for the most part, remain the same sort of gentlemen you used to fancy yourself as.

huzzah

[WhoUrDaddy]

Now, if only he would read that to himself.........

[parrot]

Moderator Note: The topic is Edward Snowden. Stay on topic, please.

[trubrit]

Hopefully back on topic.It would appear Mr Snowden an American I presume, has not only been bashing his own country , alright some may say he has that right, but by exercising it he has now got the major countries of Europe having a go to. It is noticeable that the UK is remaining quite silent amongst the general clamour, maybe of course because they to have a bogey in the closet, or perhaps it signifies the "special" relationship said to exist between our two countries . :-"

[parrot]

""special" relationship said to exist between our two countries"

Special indeed. Whatever we're (US) doing, I'd guess the UK has a hand in it as well. And that makes it all the more interesting as the UK is a member of the EU.

[WBU ALUM]

The NSA Scandal has Germans not trusting Obama anymore.

Germans Loved Obama. Now We Don’t Trust Him.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/opini ... =all&_r=1&

In Germany, whenever the government begins to infringe on individual freedom, society stands up. Given our history, we Germans are not willing to trade in our liberty for potentially better security. Germans have experienced firsthand what happens when the government knows too much about someone. In the past 80 years, Germans have felt the betrayal of neighbors who informed for the Gestapo and the fear that best friends might be potential informants for the Stasi. Homes were tapped. Millions were monitored.

Although these two dictatorships, Nazi and Communist, are gone and we now live in a unified and stable democracy, we have not forgotten what happens when secret police or intelligence agencies disregard privacy. It is an integral part of our history and gives young and old alike a critical perspective on state surveillance systems.

Yes, candidate Obama said anything to get elected. President Obama says anything to deflect attention away from his lies and broken promises.

But the senator who promised to shut Guantánamo is now a second-term president who is still fighting for its closure. And the events of the past few weeks concerning the collection of metadata and private e-mail and social-media content have made many Germans further question Mr. Obama’s proclaimed commitment to the individual freedoms we hold dear.

DURING Mr. Obama’s presidency, no American political debate has received as much attention in Germany as the N.S.A. Prism program. People are beginning to second-guess the belief that digital communication stays private. It changes both our perception of communication and our trust in Mr. Obama.

Secret courts, secret data transfers, secret storage facilities containing secrets about individuals and families. Obama's definition of the transparency that he talked about so much as candidate Obama and still lies through his teeth about as President Obama? That transparency?

When courts and judges negotiate secretly, when direct data transfers occur without limits, when huge data storage rather than targeted pursuit of individuals becomes the norm, all sense of proportionality and accountability is lost.

While our respective security services still need to collaborate on both sides of the Atlantic to pursue and prevent organized crime and terrorism, it must be done in a way that strengthens civil liberties and does not reduce them. Although we would like to believe in the Mr. Obama we once knew, the trust and credibility he enjoyed in Germany have been undermined. The challenge we face is to once again find shared values, so that trust between our countries is restored.

Perhaps instead of including a quote from James Madison in his speech, arguing that “No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare,” Mr. Obama should have been reminded of the quote from another founding father, Benjamin Franklin, when he said, “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Yes, this writer is harkening back to that same old, dead and gone Founding Father, Benjamin Franklin, and reflecting on his words in the 21st Century. This writer is NOT going to stand in the slavery line with those who just give up and accept tyranny, oppression and violations of rights.

[Khun Paul]

I never said that whatever the USA did is bad , oir that whatever the UK did is OK, both are equally as bad in my books, what i said was that in this ay and age we must accept that Govts snoop, my God they have benn doing it to everyone else and to each other for as long as I can remember.
The simple fact that an overpaid so-called whistle-blowere is gaining international fame as he talks aboput dirty secrets, and then people come out and applaud him and coimplain about what their Govt is doing to them is proceless. Surely those amercians here do not for one moment believe that they didn't know what their govt dod, if that is the case, then i can understand why they did, as it is obvious that the average American has absolutely no idea what his/her Govt is up to.

Govts have ben screwing theire people for years all govts not just the US of A. Accpet it, stop bleating about it and live with it.

[WBU ALUM]

I never said that whatever the USA did is bad , oir that whatever the UK did is OK, both are equally as bad in my books, what i said was that in this ay and age we must accept that Govts snoop, my God they have benn doing it to everyone else and to each other for as long as I can remember.
The simple fact that an overpaid so-called whistle-blowere is gaining international fame as he talks aboput dirty secrets, and then people come out and applaud him and coimplain about what their Govt is doing to them is proceless. Surely those amercians here do not for one moment believe that they didn't know what their govt dod, if that is the case, then i can understand why they did, as it is obvious that the average American has absolutely no idea what his/her Govt is up to.

Govts have ben screwing theire people for years all govts not just the US of A. Accpet it, stop bleating about it and live with it.

Another lecture from the all-knowing. You didn't say it was bad, but they're equally as bad. You need to quit while you're ahead.

"Both are equally as bad in my books . . . "

". . . it is obvious that the average American has absolutely no idea what his/her Govt is up to."

"Govts have ben screwing theire people for years all govts not just the US of A. Accpet it, stop bleating about it and live with it."

You must have done one of those polls again in order to get the views of the average American. Kinda like your "most teachers in Thailand" poll.

Yes, get in line and shut up. Just let your governments continue to oppress you.



By the way, you failed to answer the great 21st Century question again. That's twice you've dodged it.

[Khun Paul]

Why answer a question, I do not feel oppressed in any way never have for that matter, you poor afflicted man just get a life and stop moaning.
I feel that you having nailed yopur flag to the pole, no matter what you will never change your attitude to your govt. So be it, have anice day as you Americans say, Me I will just carry on regardless, stiff upper lip and a will carry on despite what you say WBU are you listening. I do hope so, this post was about a Whistle-blower who has by opening his mouth succeeded in bringing into dis-repute the security agencies of various countries by allegdly stating publically all sorts of nbefarious activities committed by many.
And you think this will make our lives safer, if you complain and moan as you do not like the fact that a Government can and will listen in to your emails, phone calls, or even access your private files to see what your up to.
Big brother came years ago, it is just that for many it was convienient to ignore what they were doing, NOW that a smartarse has opened his mouth you all complain.
Life in the big worlkd ain't pretty but you can ignore most of it IF you are doing nothing wrong. So those that complain are obviously doing something wrong.
Do I care NOT one jot.

[WBU ALUM]

Me I will just carry on regardless, stiff upper lip and a will carry on despite what you say

Yes, you will carry on in that long gray line of the oppressed who have learned to like it and accept it.

You started the bashing of America and Americans, KP. THAT is what turned this topic. I came in here to defend my country, so don't come in here with your selective perspective of all of this and try to excuse yourself.

Life in the big worlkd ain't pretty but you can ignore most of it IF you are doing nothing wrong. So those that complain are obviously doing something wrong.

Vigilance is important. I ignore nothing that is wrong and a violation. Those that complain don't want their rights violated. It has nothing at all to do with being guilty of anything.

Do I care NOT one jot.

Yes, we know. You're in line.

[WhoUrDaddy]

this post was about a Whistle-blower who has by opening his mouth succeeded in bringing into dis-repute the security agencies of various countries by allegdly stating publically all sorts of nbefarious activities committed by many.

Don't think he had to open his mouth for anyone to realize that, except the extremely ignorant.

And you think this will make our lives safer, if you complain and moan as you do not like the fact that a Government can and will listen in to your emails, phone calls, or even access your private files to see what your up to

.

I actually don't care if they do that.......................legally...............and not after repeatedly saying they don't do that. and the scope at which they have done it, and to their own allies, is a bit enlightening, even for a gov't basher / conspiracy nutter such as myself. Kind of explains where all the fake NASA funding is going. well NSA is in there somewhere. stop the BBC money making wars/regime changes, and spying, and there would probably be a surplus in the US budget............

[WBU ALUM]

Obama wants this dude so badly, he can taste it.

Snowden blames Obama for trying to block his efforts to find asylum
http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-blames-ob ... 02937.html

"It is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions," Snowden said in a statement published on the WikiLeaks website, referring to President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden. "This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile."

. . . "Although I am convicted of nothing, (the Obama administration) has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person," Snowden said in a statement posted online by anti-secrecy group WikiLeaks.

"Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum... Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me."

[parrot]

"Obama wants this dude so badly, he can taste it."

I doubt anyone in the WH cares about Snowden's rights right now. He's complaining about 'a basic right' at this point? Be real!
I watched a long interview on Charlie Rose last night with Alan Rusbridger and Janine Gibson from The Guardian about the Snowden affair. I'm at the point that about 60% of me says "hang'em" and 30% says "good-going". But it seems he made a fatal mistake in choosing how he released the info by fleeing to Hong Kong and later to Russia. No passport, no rights, no problem with me.
Had he stood on the WH or Supreme Court steps and released the info, he'd have gone to prison.......at least temporarily, for sure......but at least he'd have retained his rights. Had he only released info pertaining to the privacy concerns of American citizens, he might have gained the backing of enough people to keep him out of prison. The secrets he's revealing now (listening in on the EU, for example), have nothing to do with American privacy concerns. We spy? NS, Dick Tracy. We spy on our allies? NS, DT.

[WBU ALUM]

Even ILLEGALS get more from the federal government than citizens who pay taxes, and they are afforded rights that they didn't have in Mexico.

Snowden has no rights all of a sudden because he ratted out Obama's NSA?


Can't have it both ways. "Equal protection under the law ... " in the 14th Amendment ... Libs love to drag that out for anything and everything -- unless it doesn't fit their agenda.

[parrot]

Let him talk to Putin about his rights. My 70% says it wouldn't break my heart if he doesn't have access to his computer (or any computer for that matter). I believe he considers his computer more near and dear than any rights that he might have had. If he's lucky, he still has access to one. Maybe dial-up service.

[WBU ALUM]

Let him talk to Putin about his rights. My 70% says it wouldn't break my heart if he doesn't have access to his computer (or any computer for that matter). I believe he considers his computer more near and dear than any rights that he might have had. If he's lucky, he still has access to one. Maybe dial-up service.

His rights are still his rights. That's the way it is.

Opinions don't mean much unless it comes from SCOTUS.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, remember? Whether you like them or not.

[jackspratt]

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, remember? Whether you like them or not.

But not Obama, apparently.

[Aardvark]

Personal Opinions Exempted of course

[Svein66]

Snowden was seeking asylum in Norway (and 22 other countries), but Norway said no after only a few hours because Norwegian law says that people seeking asylum in Norway has to be in the country or at the Norwegian border at the time.