Capable lawyer needed for transfer of house

[isaanlawyers]

I can't remember the number of years you have to occupy the land.

I think you mean "prescriptive acquisition meaning you occupy the land for X years and become the owner. It depends on title deeds. Nor Sor Sam or Chanotte is not the same. But for low title deed, remember the land belongs to the government.

At this juncture they won't even divide the land for members of the family. They are afraid they will lose the land if they do anything further.

Talk to the Poo Yai Ban. If land is country side, you might have to go to Aor Bor Tor. Do you have copies of title deeds or there is no title deeds? These situations are very different. If there is NO title deed, there is something wrong but I have seen that before. If there is a title deed that was not separated between the children at the death of a person, you might have to go to Court to get a judgment and you enforce it at the local authorities. Many thais DO NOT KNOW THE LAW. They believe a Ta bian ban is a proof of ownership of the house. They are afraid to go to court to appoint an administrator of estate and the land is NOT subdivided for many years. But that is dangerous and not safe. A local lawyer can probably do an estate case in Court for 20,000 baht.

So my plan at the moment is quietly do what I'm doing, make sure I complied with everything and maybe at that point you can help us. Right now not a good idea. I'm patient the wife makes money from the farming activities, so it's not all bad. We have three years in now, so we are getting closer.

I think you are wrong. Send me a copy of the original title deed and your story to my email. I will answer you. By email, not PM.

I too understand they don't want major corporations coming in and buying huge amounts of land for farming or whatever.

Actually, that is fine. They have BOI approval and tax exemption. (www.boi.go.th) They normally have land in industrial areas to get more benefits.

For me doesn't really matter I have a lease on our current home. This was done for her future.

If the lease is NOT registered on the title deed it can be enforced by law only for 3 years. If I remember, it is section 528 of the Thai Civil Code. If your lease is registered on title deed, you have maximum 30 years with option to renew. You must follow your lease. Many land departments are now refusing a lease between husband and wives, which I understand. Instead, you do a MOU + USUFRUCT or MOU + SUPERFICIES, you specified that amounts used where your personal property owned before marriage, etc. But contracts are easier if done BEFORE marriage to avoid complexity in the common property under Thai law (clauses 1471 to 1474 of Thai civil code).

Good luck. I can't come on Udonmap often but wanted to explain that yesterday, something MIGHT have changed in Udon, and I am just talking about amphur mueang. Other districts have no problem to my knowledge except one district near Surin.

[bumper]

Sorry what is your e-mail, we do have a copy of the title. We3 have a good attroney here. But, I'm wasting a lot of yuor time. So retaining you would seem fair.

[rickfarang]

(some text removed)
I know you have to supple an aerial photograph of the area. That one throws me no idea how to do that.
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Unless the photo has to be very recent, you can take the image from Google Earth, Google Maps, or maybe another similar application.

[bumper]

Sebastion has everything now. we will see what happens.

[isaanlawyers]

I answered you by email. Some of your information was wrong. Dates, etc.
Most information was right.

This has to go to Court to transfer the land to the legal heirs. Read my email.
I can't understand how Thai lawyers work. We were very busy here. We printed your documents today, we checked them 3 of us. We have the same conclusions. It is not a difficult case. But in Thailand, things are slow, lawyers are not really efficient and they often give wrong legal advice. It is like Thai culture. They can't say THEY DON'T KNOW or THEY ARE WRONG.

If I don't know a question or someone ask our office to do work that we can't do, because we are not qualified, we will refuse. As simple as that.

Good luck.

[bumper]

Your response was excellent Thank You

[tomjones]

1) 3 years ago was not the same director.
2) There are many foreigners in Udon. Same as Pattaya, Hua Hin, Phuket, Samui. Corruption does exist in Thailand. Some officers abuse and especially when there is a large amounts of foreigners. They believe all foreigners have money and they also think foreigners don't know the law. How many times I heard that a foreigner can now own a car, or crazy stories. Remember that Thais do not make superficies, or usufruct BECAUSE they can fully own. Around 1970, the law was changed. A Thai lady married to a foreigner COULD NOT OWN LAND. The Supreme Court, I think, changed that in 1999 based on equally rights. Still, they do not want foreigners to use NOMINEES.

Foreigners DO USE NOMINESS A LOT. See all these companies with fake shareholders. I kind of understand them a little. But many people here do follow the law, do bring money in Thailand, we help the economy and should be treated fairly. I hate the immigration process here. In Canada, thousands of Thais are full citizens, have all rights but how many Canadians here can become Thais? Yes, it is not fair. It is their country. They can have the law they wish and we should follow their laws. But article 30 of THEIR constitution says EVERYONE (not every Thai) should be EQUAL (for some categories....***, race, etc.). Thailand is 30 years behind western countries in terms of law.

3) About YOUR case, Nor Sor Sam are different than LOWER title deeds and HIGHER title deeds. You can easily register rights on Chanotte and Nor Sor Sam Kor. On Nor Sor Sam, you can but you need announcements. On lower title deed like Por Bor Tor 5 you can not. And Sor Por Kor is only transmissible by heirs. Many thais do buy these title deeds but that is illegal.

I work (actually I go!) in many land departments, amphur, DBD, labour department, family court, juvenile division, I can sometimes enter in some prisons as interpreter with a Thai lawyer, all places seems to have their rules. It is a jungle here and I do it since 2006. Don't ask me why, it is their culture. The more you learn about Thailand the less you understand. I must try to find the middle way, do the best.

Yesterday, I had recorded conversations with 2 officers and the head director. He knows. I wanted to protect my client.

If you learn more about Thai culture, they have words to explain bad and good corruption in Thailand. And a majority of Thais do accept good corruption.

I personally just want to apply THE LAW.
A foreigner can NOT use ANYONE to buy land.
But a foreigner can GIVE MONEY to ANY THAI, this Thai person can BUY ANYTHING she or he wants, and the THAI PERSON, knowing she or he is the owner, does have the right to register some agreements if they wish.

Again, I receive dozens of emails each year by foreigners saying: I WANT TO BUY LAND....
NO..... You can't. (unless you have a BOI approval, or go into the 40,000,000 baht investment, some rare exceptions).
There is so much misinformation on internet. Tons of real estate agents SELLING TO FOREIGNERS. You can own a condominium. You can own structures on land. But very often, the buildings are attached to the land. And there is a proverb you can't do indirectly what you can't do directly in law.

Anyway, Thai style, I do not wish the head officer in Udon to be angry against me or our law firm. So I do it Thai style. But I know where to push the button and how far to go. He said 2 or 3 times yesterday we could go to Court or he could refuse the transaction. He accepted the transaction. I understand what he meant (he is also a barrister, the new head officer which is highest rank for a lawyer in Thailand) and we dealt like adults and I hope for all people in Udon that things will improve.

NEVER get angry at the land department.
Smile, Thai style. Ask to see the law if they tell you X or Y because they often not apply the law.
They also can be right so you need to see if what they say is right or not.

Best,

S.

I personally know 2 farang who got their usufructs these last 2 weeks.. I know how they got them...What do you think? No tea money???Good corruption and bad corruption =D> (WTF)?????can someone explain that to me.?..

[isaanlawyers]

Dear Tom Jones,
How many years do you live in Thailand? You really need an explanation on good and bad corruption?

Could you please tell us how do you know that? What did you see? You saw the documents? You saw some money exchanged? You were there? or is it HEARSAY? You seem like someone working in real estate business...

How many usufruct or any real estate agreement you registered in your life? In how many land departments?
We did hundreds in about 50-60 different land departments. It is VERY rare that tea money is exchanged.
Pattaya, Samui, Hua Hin, Phuket are different to my knowledge. You might know more.

[tomjones]

why didn't you read my post.I PERSONALLY know of 2 farang.You may have done all these usufructs in all of these places..Of coure they are different.Of course it is rare//They follow the law...You don't need to pay tea money in any of these other places.Good and bad corruption I am still confused.maybe you have time to explain or not.thanks ....

[isaanlawyers]

Post all your infos if you want to help people in Udon. Write how much they paid and if you want to stop corruption, maybe go to the police station with your 2 friends that you personally know and make a complain. You will see where it will go.

I saw you joined the forum today.

You can also send me a private message (better to my email) with their names and how to contact them because I would LOVE to see a copy of the contract they registered. People confuse superficies, rights of habitations, usufruct. I want to see if there was an announcement made, if it was transferred on the same day, etc. All will remain confidential.

[bumper]

I will say this Sabastian was spot on with my problem, if you take the time to read the thread. People were having problems with the Land office here. Is that still today who knows Sebastian did meet with them on the behalf of a client. I have no idea. The guys who posted on here were the people having problems, not third party statements.

Rumors abound in Udon some are correct some are not.

It appears you are posting based on third party information.

Would be nice to know how they were able to do this, what documents were filed ect.

Might help someone else.

[wazza]

Have used Issan Lawyers and Sebastian is spot on, very professional and contactable.

Emails and calls returned promptly

[isaanlawyers]

Just confirming that last Monday, we registered a usufruct to a client in Udon Thani, amphur Mueang. It was very difficult but we did it.

1) the head officer will look case by case. He doesn't want foreigners to "use" a contract to "own" properties.
2) they have a discretionary power to investigate (and they did) also interviewed (and they did) and check that everything is legal and this is not a way to "own properties" and that both parties accept that.
3) We didn't pay any tea money but it was DIFFICULT.
4) They refused to register a usufruct on the transfer day, a month ago. they asked us to way 30 days. Which we did. There is no law about that but we had no choice. I am a little busy this week but I took pictures of the chanotte. I can delete the names and private information and you will see that it was registered last Monday, usufruct for life, in Udon Thani.

It was the most difficult case of usufruct we did. If people want to do it again in Udon, I am not sure I will accept. This case, we made an agreement with the client a year ago. It was a package including checking title deeds, building agreement, giving legal advice, usufruct + sending a lawyer to register, etc... So we kind of had the obligation to do whatever we could to respect our word. And we were able to do it. I didn't know a year ago that the head officer would change and that in that place, it would be very difficult.

We went to the land department with the law, with all documents, marriage certificate, EVERYTHING. They were obviously not happy to give it to us, but it is done.

[bumper]

Well it sounds like unless your in a hurry. Best to wait for a new Land Office Manager. That is what I have decided on our land. In the end the wife is perfectly happy with the way things are. It's hers not mine.

I want to thank you for all your help.

[sparksy59]

Nitipat is the Lawyer and I forgot to post his phone number and email nitipat_88@hotmail.com call 08-19752074 as I stated he is very good and not expensive as others that rort the fact we cant read Thai

[bumper]

Well let us know how it goes, the Land Office manager has taken pretty hard line in the past.

[rickfarang]

My wife says that all of the condo units in Udon are already spoken for. Maybe things will be better until new condos get started.