Crypto-currencies: The future is now

[noosard]

??? what is the value of Bitcoin
not cyberspace but the physical world

[old-timer]

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Bitcoin options general terms »

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OT.................................................

[noosard]

Bitcoin hype worse than 'tulip mania', says Dutch central banker
Nout Wellink describes bitcoin as a bubble, and says 'at least then you got a tulip at the end'

[KHONDAHM]

??? what is the value of Bitcoin
not cyberspace but the physical world

It has the same intrinsic value as the various colored paper notes we call "cash". Zero (or almost zero). Anything used as a medium of exchange is "money". Animals, plants, metals, rocks, etc. are examples of "money" having real value. Ergo, they are all useful to the holder even if nobody else wants to trade for them. "Cash" is pretty much worthless except as fuel for fire or something with which to wipe one's posterior. Crypto-currencies hold no such pretense.

[KHONDAHM]

Bitcoin options

lol! What the heck are you on about??? It's a currency just like dollars, Euros, or baht except that it is not physical or centrally controlled or managed. It is not a stock, option, bond, or whatever.

[KHONDAHM]

A much better explanation of things things to come mentioned in my previous post:

While the Fed Talks Taper, China Prepares to Actually do it!
November 22, 2013


Probably one of the best debates about BitCoin

[WhoUrDaddy]

Call me ignorant..............or extremely F'g stupid, but after very little research, wiki, I still haven't a clue what a bitcoin is. besides a novelty, that is valued on simple market value. no more than any collector's item, beanie baby, baseball card, painting, though no a material thing. Although, they now have atm's, that will dispense money for bitcoins.

good deal if you got in on the bottom of the collecting thing. understand the electronic money thing, which is backed buy regulated money / exchange rates. realistically, nothing but an electronic transfer / bitcoin, BUT, a gov't will back it, at least with trust, if they don't hold any gold to back it. who is backing the bitcoin......a 'pseudonym' developer, who I can't track down and kill if it all goes worthless, or even sue for damages. I'll stick to the useless paper crap, I can touch that and it's accepted by everyone.

so bitcoins are sort of like, electronic porn, something you can't touch, but some get a thrill out of it.....

[KHONDAHM]

Call me ignorant..............or extremely F'g stupid...I still haven't a clue what a bitcoin is.

It is a currency. If you are a fan of sci-fi, many movies simply mention the use of "credits" as a money. It is interesting to note that even in sci-fi, Star Trek or Star Wars, for examples, multiple currencies co-exist. Some are backed by interplanetary governments or factions such as Star Wars' Galactic Credit Standard. Some are backed by precious metals such as Star Trek's Ferenghi Latinum.

Cryptocurrencies (BitCoin being the most prominent) are the embodiment of conceptions of what a "perfect" monetary system should be: Decentralized, "anonymous", trustworthy, "secure", unencumbered, easily exchanged (as it gains acceptance), etc. Not all cryptocurrencies share the same attributes. BitCoin, for example, has a hard-cap of 21 million top level units (which can be broken down to quadrillions of satoshi units (the smallest unit). What you hold is worth more as acceptance (demand for them) increases. PeerCoin has no maximum unit cap. Like dollars, an infinite number of PeerCoins are possible (which means what you hold is worth less as more are created).

So, think of BitCoin as non-physical currency just like any fiat currency and you will understand it more as time goes on and it is more widely used and accepted.

[WhoUrDaddy]

I kind of got that part, it's a credit, no different than a USD..........BUT........a credit for what, and from where, and backed by who or what. who determines it's value, beside 'market value', and when all 21 million are 'distributed', if you don't have any, in their world, you don't eat.

I don't think there will be a universal 'credit' in our time. and what if bitcoins aren't chosen, since it would screw up central banking's idea of monetary exchanges. i personally like the idea, as central banking would no longer exist, although sure they, the 1 % ers who control central banking will control bitcoins also, if it ever got that far.

so basically, a bitcoin is what I thought, useless, unless a collector/buyer/trader of bitcoins.

not too sure about secure, as wasn't a bunch of 'bitcoins' recently hacked and stolen.

unless your employer pays you in bitcoins, how are they earned, as the only way to get them, would be buy or in trade. understand the concept, but it doesn't work in my world.

who holds the keys to the 'vault', who issues the 21 million, as that's who I want to be, as last time I noticed, they were worth about 1000 USD ............TIMES 21 MILL............

[WhoUrDaddy]

seems to tick every few seconds a few dollars, though in 5 minutes, remained basically the same +/- 1130 USD. last 5 minutes, has gone between 1128 - 1135, bouncing back and forth 32-3-4.

year to date chart below........jan to oct...........flat, then within 2 months, goes from 300 to 1200, though the other site I used, has it at 1100...... quite a difference.

[WhoUrDaddy]

to put it in perspective............what if the THB rose against the USD 400 % in 2 months........because of 'market value' and nothing else. a painting is worth what someone will pay for it..........

it simply doesn't work in the real world...........just the bitcoin world............good luck to them.

[parrot]

I don't view ALL currencies the same way........a dollar isn't a Laotian Kip, nor would I have the same amount of trust in a Philippine Peso that I might in a Mexican one. While a currency's value can fluctuate, there are given criteria that affect its value.....at least to a certain degree.
Given the state of Thailand's economy at present, for example, I'd be more inclined to believe the value of the Baht will drop than rise in the next year or two. No guarantee, but at least there are open source ways to make a qualified judgement.
A crypto currency fluctuates....based on what criteria? And if there is certain criteria that affects its value, does the common man or woman have access to that criteria.....or is it just a pot shot, hoping you're lucky?
Back on the country-to-country value of a currency......I'd be inclined to judge the value at least in part on who is leading that country, what the government's economic policies are, its foreign policies, etc. With bitcoin, I don't know who Satoshi Nakamoto is......nor do I know where he resides......nor do I know his political inclinations. Let's say someone discovers that Satoshi (not his/her real name, apparently) is in fact a Nigerian......would that affect someone's interest in buying bitcoins? Or if Satoshi were a 17 year old gypsie operating out of a Rome internet shop?
Finally, I remember well what happened back in the late 1990's when all the new-generation financial geniuses declared the old brick-mortar way of the stock market was obsolete.....that generating profits wasn't as important as everyone made things out to be. You hear the same whine day after day and before long, you start to believe maybe it's true. Or that the value of home prices can ONLY go up.....and they did, and they did, and the did, until they didn't. And if you were caught holding the mortgage when 'they didn't' you were screwed.

I'd be more inclined to invest in a company that allows people to seamlessly transfer money from one person to another via mobile phone.....by-passing banks, western union, and their expensive transfer charges. Apparently, India/Bangladesh are going that route. I can visualize how that could work......and maybe that's the problem with bitcoins......I can't visualize it. Maybe a good drug would help.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

KhonDahm's enthusiasm for the bitcoin should been taken with a large grain of salt for no-one knows much about it, and the more one learns the more unsavoury it seems to get. Beware, for the moment, bit coins!

2 suspected Bitcoin counterfeiters are arrested in Germany

German police say two people illegally generated nearly $1 million of virtual Bitcoins.
German police have arrested two people suspected of illegally generating nearly $1 million of virtual Bitcoins. (Rick

By Stuart Pfeifer
December 4, 2013, 9:19 a.m.

German police have arrested two people suspected of illegally generating Bitcoins worth nearly $1 million.

Bitcoins are an unregulated, virtual currency that is stored in password-protected electronic "wallets" and used to make purchases on the Internet and at some brick-and-mortar businesses. The currency also is traded in online exchanges, where its value fluctuates widely.

Prosecutors in the German town of Kempten said they are investigating whether people used software to create digital Bitcoins worth 700,000 euros, about $950,000, Bloomberg News reported.

The two suspects were arrested this week in raids that turned up evidence of other hacking activities, German police told Bloomberg. The suspects weren’t identified.

"Digital currencies will keep law enforcement authorities busy in the future," Joerg Ziercke, president of Germany's Federal Crime Office, said in a statement. "The relative anonymity of the currency makes money laundering easier and lowers the risk of being caught."

In a separate Bitcoin probe in China, three people were arrested Wednesday on suspicion of stealing money from investors through a fake online exchange, the official Xinhua News Agency reported, citing local authorities.

Bitcoins gained some credibility after U.S. law enforcement and securities agencies said at a U.S. Senate hearing last month that the virtual currency could be a legitimate means of exchange.



http://www.latimes.com/business/money/l ... z2mbZXbypX

[parrot]

Actually, I've learned quite a bit about bitcoins in the past few days.....thanks for the thread.

[rick]

Yes, interesting to learn about it, but as said, what is it's value in the real world? If gold price collapses, still makes nice jewelry. And no individual/organisation supports it, all depends on it's value minute by minute. I'd rather speculate on Tesco points....

[leterry60614]

Finally found some numbers from Alice Truong, a US reporter, on Bitcoins used as a currency and not as an asset. The number of commercial transactions is very modest but growing fast. That suggests that Bitcoin today is more an investment than a currency.

"During last year's inaugural Bitcoin Black Friday, BitPay--hailed as the PayPal for Bitcoin--processed 99 transactions. This year, the system experienced a nearly 6300% surge, processing 6,296 transactions Friday and making Nov. 29 BitPay's busiest day yet.

Overall, BitPay saw 55,288 transactions in November, a 165% increase from the previous month. This was no doubt accelerated by Shopify's announcement released the day before Thanksgiving that its 75,000 merchants can now accept Bitcoin using BitPay. Last week, the value of Bitcoin soared to an all-time high, surpassing $1,000 on the Mt. Gox exchange"..

[leterry60614]

BitPay is a $2.7 mil startup from Atlanta and not listed on any stock exchange... Yet.

[KHONDAHM]

BitPay presents their business case for BitCoin and explains how any merchant can start accepting BitCoin immediately. Basically, the merchant signs up with BitPay and is given a BitCoin address (think deposit account number). Buyers send their BitCoin payment to that address and BitPay converts the BitCoin to fiat (cash) and deposits the fiat into the merchant's bank account. Very tidy.




P.S. - The thread is intended to inform and discuss. KD (that would be me) isn't attempting to "convince" anyone to do anything. So, please stop with the bogey man bit.

BUT if you feel so inclined or care to test sending BitCoin, please do read up about how to obtain BitCoin and send BitCoin to me here:

1Gc8sDhZBvsZQNNUby3j6CCiQRoMvQf7qB

[WhoUrDaddy]

So, please stop with the bogey man bit..............

quite glad you posted the thread, nudging me to research a bit more, as just reading the occasional new blips about it, and then the ATM's in Canada actually gave it some 'credibility' and probably why it jumped 400 % recently. Good investment if in early, though I think the jury will be out for a bit, as far as being used as a currency. Definitely some security issues to resolve. I also wonder what bank is backing the atm's, though not interested enough to research it.

[jackspratt]

One of many, I suspect, hiccups along the way:

China ban hits bitcoin value

The value of bitcoins, the volatile virtual currency that has soared in recent months and made fortunes for some, has plunged after China banned its banks from providing related services and products.

China has become the biggest bitcoin market in recent months as buyers seek to profit from speculating in the currency.

Prices on BTC China, the country's biggest bitcoin trading platform -- which had stood at more than 7,000 yuan (around $US1,100/$A1,214.33) each -- on Thursday plunged by more than a third to an intra-day low of 4,523.12 yuan.

The drop wiped more than $US5 billion ($A5.52 billion) off the total value of the 12 million-odd Bitcoins currently in circulation.

They later recovered to trade at around 5,700 yuan each...............

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/busine ... /20190491/