Blighty and the UKIP Revolution

[mally]

The problem I see with the whole EU thing is that Westminster was not dismantled when we signed up.England should have had a its' own regional Government (based somewhere in the Midlands) & the 2 Houses should have been left as tourist attractions.

Gobsmacked at this post - when people have views like this I despair, just despair,
Even France has seen a rise against the EU in their votes with their National front topping their results. Something about the EU is very wrong, very very wrong.

[Earnest]

The problem I see with the whole EU thing is that Westminster was not dismantled when we signed up.
England should have had a its' own regional Government (based somewhere in the Midlands) & the 2 Houses should have been left as tourist attractions.

Ah, you're a federalist.

We're poles apart on this one, Bob.

But I don't believe the UK will go the way you want it to.

[BobHelm]

Neither will it go the way you want & out of the EU Earnest.
You can see by what their voters have said on here, it is some sort of protest vote not a vote for their policies.

You might be interested to know mally that the amount paid out by the other members of the EU to British Pensioners in benefits just about equals out what the British Government pays out in Social security to EU members.
You seem to not understand the concept of free movement of labour & Immigration - they are two completely different things...

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Well, London seems to be a haven for investments by high-rollers from around the globe so it's not all bad.

Ask how many of the would remain in a non EU England, Uncle...
They would be heading off to Paris, Rome & Bonn - who are already looking to take that business but currently have no extra advantage to lever the move...

I'm not sure as London has been a popular spot for worldwide investors for a long, long time. It also has attracted deposits from many rich people from Brunei, Saudi Arabia, India, et al who see their investments secure with British bankers. This is not to say you are not right if England was not in Europe, but....

I shudder at your idea that Westminster should have been culled from the face of the Earth. The Houses of Parliament are sacred and should remain where they are.

[BobHelm]

I shudder at your idea that Westminster should have been culled from the face of the Earth. The Houses of Parliament are sacred and should remain where they are.

No, not culled, left as it should be like the many historic buildings in the UK, left as a tourist attraction which is one part of the economy that does prosper...

My point is that the successive Governments seated at Westminster have inflicted far more damage to the UK than all the European Parliaments added together.
That is has often benefited said Governments to blame Europe for just about everything seems to have worked on some of you. The actual facts tell a very different tale though.

[Zidane]

I am far from being a fan of the EU but,unfortunately,to leave it would be financial suicide for Britain.
However,if the UKIP starts getting more and more votes it might make those from the main parties elected as MP's and MEP's realise that they should be putting Britains interests first and not their own.
Although he is obviously a fair bit older than me,Khun mally makes some good points in his post !

[Earnest]

Neither will it go the way you want & out of the EU Earnest.
You can see by what their voters have said on here, it is some sort of protest vote not a vote for their policies.

I reckon it will, which is why the Conservatives won't run a referendum until the very last moment in 2017. We'd be out like a shot if they ran one now.

My point is that the successive Governments seated at Westminster have inflicted far more damage to the UK than all the European Parliaments added together.

Agree with that but the road that the EU is taking us down is unacceptable, which is worse.


Great debate, I love chatting about things like this. Just hope a forum Herbert doesn't wade in and start getting personal.

[Earnest]

Poor old Nick Clegg is taking some heavy Ack Ack after last night's dismal showing for the Lib Dems. The bloke's alright for a pro-European and it's sad to see the party have the knives out for him. Let's not forget that he was the man that got the Liberals into government and he hasn't been doing a bad job over the 4 or so years. Remember the alternative could have been Chris Huhne.

[BobHelm]

I really cannot see the Conservatives running a referendum.
If you talk to just about any business person they will tell you that England Co. Ltd. is stuffed if they pull out of Europe.
It was that which made Uncle Ted get into it in the first place.
Even a rapid little Englander like Mrs. T. didn't have the bottle to pull the plug as she knew the Party backers would have a fit.
But we will see...

Like Rick, given the opportunity I would put my money where my mouth was & collect a Euro pension rather than a GBP one tomorrow...

& yes it is only a pleasant exchange of differing views & will not influence the decision nor change any minds, but good to get thoughts out on the table now & again...

[Earnest]

No, I don't think the current Conservatives will run a referendum...not under the current leadership.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Interesting and eye-opening comments Khun Helm. Most of what I have heard about the EU has been negative such as gross interference in the laws of the land, in price for food and so on.

[BobHelm]

We will have to wait & see what Khun Paul comes up with Uncle...
However I don't believe that anything has significantly changed in the English legal system by interference from the EU.
Plaintiffs have certainly taken their cases there when they have exhausted the UK system & won, much to the chagrin of the Government.

The early years of the beast were badly marked by quotas & subsidies as countries attempted to protect their farming community but much of that has been worked out of the system now. The waters around Europe were heavily overfished in a way that was totally unsustainable. Fishermen lost jobs for certain but they would have done anyway without some sort of action.

I am far from saying that the EU is the best idea anyone ever had. However (& it is a huge however) it has stopped World War 3 happening there &, with the exception of Russia flexing its' Crimean muscles Europe is probably as peaceable as anytime during the last 100 years..

In general people do not like change & like something to blame as that is the easy option. But in doing that it is far too easy to miss that things usually change anyway.

If someone could come up with a better alternative I would listen intently. I do not, personally, believe that taking the ball away because the game is getting tough is a particularly sensible way to go.
England needs Europe for its energy supply & so needs to export to them to pay for it. It is as simple as that.
Telling people over whom you have no control that you want all the plus points of a deal & none of the minus points (which are their plus points) rarely works..

[pimples]

wheres all the moaners ? expected them out in force for this posting ,they get very irritable about this sort of thing

[Earnest]

Oh, you're back then? I hope they didn't torture you too much, Specky.

[Khun Paul]

The cull comment waas a joke, but I remember dear old Enoch Powell ( RIP) who was right on so damn right and we ignored him at our peril and now the do-gooders, the left handed brigade as well as most of the left wing lily livered everyone has rights brigade is doing far more harm to the UK than any government could, even my sainted mother ( RIP at 95 ) had problems with Social services. Sorted out I can tell you , very quickly.

[jackspratt]

The cull comment waas a joke,

That was some joke Paul ..................... =D> =D> =D> =D>

[BobHelm]

The Immigration policy into the UK was very much set by the right of politics, rather than the left as you claim Paul.

Asians ex Uganda in 1972 under Uncle Ted (Conservative).
The influx of West Africans & Asians into the UK started under Winston Churchill (Conservative) in the war years.
Indeed the Labour (left wing) Government after the war went to great lengths to recruit Europeans to fill vacant jobs. They virtually killed Immigration from the Commonwealth despite labour shortages.
It was during the 1950s & early 1960s that the greatest influx occurred. This was under the Governments of
Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Anthony Eden, Harold Macmillan & Sir Alec Douglas-Home - all Conservatives of the old, right wing school.
By the time they had done the die was cast & set. Once things like Immigration have occurred there is no return to what was before, whatever the desire!!

[Prenders88]

Yes Bob, it was the Tories and their mill owning friends, who shipped in vast numbers of Pakistani's to reduce terms, conditions and wages and increase profits and dividends for the shareholders.

[GT93]

Hats off to this lively discussion. It's a shame the public debate isn't as informative. I think it's economic lunacy to leave but I can understand why many Brits want to leave. Hopefully a solution can be found for the UK where it largely keeps the trade benefits of being in the EU but gains more independence. As an outsider I think the UK has been badly mismanaged for a long time by your own politicians and captains of finance. Much of the price for leaving the UK will be born by less skilled workers and those out of work. I understand these people are already visiting the food banks in huge numbers.

[ronan01]

The Immigration policy into the UK was very much set by the right of politics, rather than the left as you claim Paul.

Asians ex Uganda in 1972 under Uncle Ted (Conservative).
The influx of West Africans & Asians into the UK started under Winston Churchill (Conservative) in the war years.
Indeed the Labour (left wing) Government after the war went to great lengths to recruit Europeans to fill vacant jobs. They virtually killed Immigration from the Commonwealth despite labour shortages.
It was during the 1950s & early 1960s that the greatest influx occurred. This was under the Governments of
Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Anthony Eden, Harold Macmillan & Sir Alec Douglas-Home - all Conservatives of the old, right wing school.
By the time they had done the die was cast & set. Once things like Immigration have occurred there is no return to what was before, whatever the desire!!

I thought the Ugndans, West Africans and Asians, etc were part of the commonwealth / empire and simply exercised their right to return to the "mother county", before that door was closed.