Solar energy Incentive

[maaka]

I am going to have two systems down on the ranch, both for power, and for water..
just getting the bits together now for a wee 12v system, so I can a 12v Flojet water pump to my hot water gas heater, some lights and a car stereo..so if the mains go down I still have tank water and solar power..I will put it together here ( switchboard, controller ) and throw it in the suitcase, and buy a panel and battery Isaan side..

[bumper]

At the installation costs we saw, and panels wearing out in five years. You won't recover costs in the feed into the grid program.

What is the average life time use of batteries?

[maaka]

I have had my two panels for 18yrs on the roof of my house, and gone thru 3 batteries in that time, and still going strong..as you know I am not a grid fan, I am for self sustainability..if I cant buy a decent panel and battery in Thailand, I will bring with me, or ship in...I am watching to see how the other blokes on this thread who have systems up and running to see how they make out re panels and batteries...

[glalt]

I'm not involved with any government scheme. I have a standard 15-45 meter and with nothing added, I can tell you that if my panels are making more electric than is being used, the standard meter does indeed turn backwards.

As for panel life, I know of a couple systems that the Thai government provided to people off grid. Those panels are probably 20 years or older and they are still working. Leonics provided the one piece unit combination charger and inverter and amazingly enough, they are also still working. I don't know how much power they put out, but it is not much. A few lights and a small TV. Only the batteries have been replaced. My wife's relatives are WAY off grid and likely will never have access to the grid. That small system is all the electricity that they have. The labels on the Leonic unit have turned brown and mostly fallen off so that I couldn't even read them.

Battery life depends on how far you discharge them. A decent quality deep cycle battery that is not discharged below 50 percent should last longer than ten years.

At this time, I am not using my 500 watt grid tie unit because since I put the panels on the roof, it is too small for those two panels. If I ever get back to Udon, I plan to buy another panel and leave it and the grid tie inverter connected full time.

[glalt]

Amorn has FINALLY updated their website;

http://translate.google.com.hk/translat ... wWvFgWOVIA

[bumper]

Thought this was interesting Thai solar company seeking protection from the Government. After the bids we got on our approved plan. I would say they are simply to high.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/new ... protection

[glalt]

It appears that they are not very proud of their products. I have never heard of them and failed to find prices for any of their panels. I think you are correct about them pricing themselves out of the market.

[qon]

I just thought of something! on a safety nature, if the infrastructure (outside of your property) is not properly setup, it can be deadly. Imagine some work has to be done on the supply line, the electricity people would cut the supply at some breaker, but all these houses with solar would still be pumping down electricity; but which house? from where? It will be deadly if those people don't check for live wire before touching it, the solar system owner will be liable if not authorized to reverse feed into the electricity grid, and if equipment is not approved.

Technically it is easy to find a reversible meter, setup the panels but document setup and feed, organize account debit has to be government authority setup.

[rjj04]

I just thought of something! on a safety nature, if the infrastructure (outside of your property) is not properly setup, it can be deadly. Imagine some work has to be done on the supply line, the electricity people would cut the supply at some breaker, but all these houses with solar would still be pumping down electricity; but which house? from where? It will be deadly if those people don't check for live wire before touching it, the solar system owner will be liable if not authorized to reverse feed into the electricity grid, and if equipment is not approved.

Technically it is easy to find a reversible meter, setup the panels but document setup and feed, organize account debit has to be government authority setup.

The technology to prevent such an occurrence is called "islanding protection". When the grid power goes down the grid-tie inverter senses higher impedance load and cuts itself off. ALL grid-tie inverters for many years have this otherwise they would not be allowed in the country. Of course if some homeowner/hobbyist were to build their own grid-tie inverter without islanding... ouch

I have bought the 1500W grid-tie system from Amorn. Along with my existing 825W of power, I will have 2300W installed. If I take a holiday for a week or two anytime between November and February there is a significant chance that that months meter reading will be negative (i.e. the meter will read less than the previous month's reading by PEA). We will see if their software will hiccup and send me a bill for 999,999KWhs/4 million baht monthly charge The software "should" realize that it is impossible for a residence to use that much power in one month and it should assume the homeowner is sourcing power to the grid. The software should just keep the current meter reading the same as the previous month's reading/value with zero baht bill for the month. If it resets the value to the new lower reading then I will not be able to carryover, or accumulate savings. I was "assured" by the local PEA hua-naa that everything would be okay as long as my system was under 10kw of installed power.... we shall see. With only 2300W installed a negative reading on the meter should be an infrequent event. It seems I will be the guinea pig here...wish me luck naa.

[rjj04]

FYI on "anti-islanding"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islanding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islanding ... easurement
There are problems, when many grid-tie inverters are connected to one branch of the grid. Say every house in the neighborhood had a solar GTI, then detecting a grid-failure might be problematic. Since my house seems to be the only house wihin at least a 40km radius with solar GTI... this issue seems to be very very far off in the distance... say 2040? The way the government's solar incentive program seems to have flopped, intentionally or not, anti-islanding problems should be the laast of the worries.

[glalt]

My small grid tie inverter shuts down instantly when the main power goes off. The red light comes on and it just shuts off. It has been tested many times with the mains going off usually every day. Most times the grid is off for only a few seconds but often longer. I did have a UPS that I left connected for when I went from the battery bank to the main power. It has died and now the computer is always connected to the battery bank. The system has kept the batteries charged enough even during these rainy cloudy days.

[rjj04]

they are still for sale cheap ~$200/280w

Qon, I, and most probably others on this site, would be interested in knowing which second hand dealer is selling these panels? Amorn was selling panels that seem to meet your description (damage due to being in the field for a relatively short while). I bought three of the Amorn panels last year and they are all still performing well. For the price they can't be beat.

Can you tell us where these panels you mentioned are being sold?

thx

[rjj04]

The biggest beneficiary of the scheme is the government, they will reduce infrastructure spending with ever increasing demand for electricity, on the band wagon of clean energy.

I think this is a good point. In America at the moment, electric utility companies are trying (and in one case succeeding) in placing fees on grid-tie residential customers. The companies claim that these solar grid-tie customers are making use of the grid infrastructure so they should have to pay for that convenience. What these companies fail to mention is the benefit they receive from this distributed power generation. One of the biggest reasons for failures of electrical and electronic equipment is wear and tear due to heat stress issues. During the daytime, on a hot summers day, the power consumption will shoot up due to A/C usage. The grid components become hot from the ambient temperature and the additional load they are placed under due to customer usage of A/C. Yet this is the time when grid-tie customers of the utility are placing the most power onto the grid. These customers are therefore reducing the power transfer required from the grid electric provider, and thus reducing wear and tear on the grid components. Thus, in my opinion, the utility companies are the ones benefitting from having grid-tie customers as they will be saving on grid maintenance issues. The grid-tie customer is also helping the reliability of the grid and preventing brown-outs and black-outs.

For instance, yesterday I noticed the fan in my room reduce speed way down. So, curious creature that I am, I went in to look at my grid-tie inverters. The grid voltage was dropping quite low. I have no way of telling, but at the time I was thinking that the 1800 watts or so that my system was delivering to the grid was helping prevent a line dropout.

[bumper]

Always a catch 22. Imagine had I paid 350K for the system for five KW. only to find this out a year or so later. I would not be a happy a camper.

It seems an off grid system would be best. If you want to run air and I do, probably would not work.

[glalt]

Many states in the US had passed laws requiring electric companies to have a certain percentage of their power from renewable green sources.The percentage depending on the state and goes from 25 to 40 percent. I am originally from Ohio so I sometimes check on their progress. Their target was 25 percent. Wind power is the most economical at this point. Now the state wants to renege on their agreement with the wind power companies. New sources of natural gas have been discovered making the electricity generated from natural gas cheaper than wind power. It just goes to show that governments cannot be trusted. New politicians make new rules. Ohio seems to have forgotten that the wind power companies pay millions of dollars in taxes every year to the local governments.

[bumper]

Yep the same the world over.

[rjj04]

A lot of this Natural Gas price drop is due to the fracking craze. From what I am reading the economics of fracking are not that great, and it could be that a massive amount of low interest rate debt is driving the fracking wave. If that is so, then a return to more normal interest rates might cause the fracking boom to come to a screeching halt. If Natural Gas prices return to their long term mean, the Ohio government might regret their decisions The cost of wind power is very deterministic, unlike that of fossil fuels. I bet a larger part of the decision making process is being based upon the fossil fuel lobbyist money!!! Too cynical? Perhaps not.

[glalt]

Big energy users in the US would be crazy to use oil rather natural gas. As far as BTU value, natural gas is 330 percent cheaper than crude oil. As far as fracking, the cost of oil produced is about 7 times more expensive than Middle East oil.

[rjj04]

Yep, natural gas is a cheaper fossil fuel than oil. I believe coal is the cheapest fossil fuel for electricity generation. If a proper carbon tax were to be put in place, any fossil fuel would seem expensive vs renewables. I didn't know fracked oil (in the USA?) is 7 times more expensive to get out of the ground than Middle East oil. I guess shipping by oil tanker doesn't add much cost to the equation?

[rick]

When i researched fracking it seems the average gas well's output declines about 50% a year. Hence to maintain production you have to keep drilling wells .... but for how long?