Anybody made an usufruct in Udon recently ??

[wazza]

Right of Habitation ??? as a document ?? is this like a registered lease ??

For the Oil and Gas , it still belongs to The Govt, as in any country, urban myth again, exploration rights are given by the Govt

The registered Usufruct is legally binding, so well done.

[waanjai]

More and more it becomes obvious that the "newly possible" usufruct in Udon Provincial Land Office is no longer the broadly conceived usufruct - i.e. covering "the rights to possess, use and have benefit on the Land for a period of time or even a lifetime of the Usufructuary" it once was but something that has been shrinked to only the right of habitation.

The right of habitation just assures the farang that he is allowed to live on that piece of land (that is owned by his wife) for 30 years or a lifelong and that her legal heirs can't throw him out - legally. But usufruct meant always more in the past and that was the reason why Thai people used this legal concept too. The Usufructuary could grow banana trees on the land or start a pork farm on the land. That was meant with using (usus) the fruits (fructus) of the land.

Habitation is only a small part or glimpse of it.

Now consider You have the right of habitation. Your wife would have a deadly accident. Her heirs would decide to open up a pork farm besides the house but on the same land.. You would still have your right to live there. You want? :-"

No reason to shout Hurrah.

[sometimewoodworker]

Right of Habitation ??? as a document ?? is this like a registered lease ??
The registered Usufruct is legally binding, so well done.

There is a document, which we didn't bother to research, which translates to "A Right of Habitation" which I think is different (or may be not) from a lease.

And yes we realise that the Usufruct we registered is legally binding and can only be changed by my agreement (or death)

[sometimewoodworker]

More and more it becomes obvious that the "newly possible" usufruct in Udon Provincial Land Office is no longer the broadly conceived usufruct - i.e. covering "the rights to possess, use and have benefit on the Land for a period of time or even a lifetime of the Usufructuary" it once was but something that has been shrinked to only the right of habitation.

Do you have any evidence of this? I have seen nothing to backup that conclusion. There seem to be 3 kinds of documents related to land and living, 2 of which are Usufruct and Right of Habitation.

The Udon Thani area land office, when we phoned the clearly understood the Usufruct and had we been in its area would have be happy to register on for us. One of the local officials also had the same attitude but was overruled by her boss, who eventually permitted it.

However an Usufruct is an Usufruct and A Right of Habitation is a Right of Habitation and they are clearly different.

[waanjai]

I have seen chanods from dschangwat Udon on which the farang was listed as having only a right of habitation on the land - either for a certain period of time or lifelong - although the married couples had applied for a complete usufruct.

This was clearly the result of the decision first reported here:

The Land Department in Udon Thani and usufructs
« on: May 21, 2013, 01:22:38 PM »
The land department in Udon Thani is refusing to register usufruct to foreigners.
They also told us on the phone that they are refusing leases and superficies. That is a decision of the head officer of the land department....
They only contract he agrees is rights of habitation...

If that would have changed very recently, one would only have to make a scan of the last entry on the chanods - concerning the alien - and to show this here. It is in Thai only though.

[Barney]

I have seen chanods from dschangwat Udon on which the farang was listed as having only a right of habitation on the land - either for a certain period of time or lifelong - although the married couples had applied for a complete usufruct.

This was clearly the result of the decision first reported here:

The Land Department in Udon Thani and usufructs
« on: May 21, 2013, 01:22:38 PM »
The land department in Udon Thani is refusing to register usufruct to foreigners.
They also told us on the phone that they are refusing leases and superficies. That is a decision of the head officer of the land department....
They only contract he agrees is rights of habitation...

If that would have changed very recently, one would only have to make a scan of the last entry on the chanods - concerning the alien - and to show this here. It is in Thai only though.

Waanjai

Just to clear up my situation so as not to confuse others whom may be about to approach the UT land office in regard to a usufruct. This is from my earlier post in the thread. A legal usufruct can be obtained, not just a right of habitation.

"Was able to register a Usufruct for life today in the Udon Thani land office, had to present the dual language contract which we had made up for witnessing by the boss 2nd row back. Few other hurdles and hoops to jump also some ampuer involvement but nothing to hard for me, but my missus did all the hard yards and talking. My name now on 3 chanote parcels of land to make the one property now with my name on all.
Now for the yellow book."

Under the usufruct document in dual language I can virtually do what I like with the land for my lifetime, except maybe drill for oil or dig for minerals. She or her heirs can sell the property but it comes with the proviso in the document to the potential buyer that the usufruct stands firm

[kopkei]

well , i think? in case you have a real usufruct your name is also on the chanote in the back ...
the land can not be sold without your consent ...
in case of a right of habitation , it will not be registered at the back of the chanote ....(?)
do not forget a usufruct is only of interest when your wife dies before you , she can at any time withdraw this usufructure when she is still alive and this without your consent .... so the story's of falang kicking wife after dispute out of the home and keep living there is rubbish ....if she withdraws the usufruct it will be vice versa....(?)
to be really safe after a sudden dead of your wife ,is your wife leaving also a will stating you will inherit the land and home in case of her dead ....good luck to all....

[wazza]

, she can at any time withdraw this usufructure when she is still alive and this without your consent .... so the story's of falang kicking wife after dispute out of the home and keep living there is rubbish ....if she withdraws the usufruct it will be vice versa....(?)

sorry Kopkei, But a Usufruct is a legally binding document and enforceable in a Thai court of law. It is also issued to the expat and not just the owner of the land. Banks wont accept the land title for security as they cant legally evict the expat etc....

It was recently tested in Surin, where the wife bribed a land official to change the title and remove the Usufruct and then tried to evict her ex husband.

Husband has the original copy of the Usufruct and took it to the Police station, it went to court and ex wife convicted, land officer transferred , and Judge upheld the the expats right to live in the house etc...

My friend also has a Usufruct on the property he helped to build the house on etc, it went pear shaped in the relation ship and the property remains empty until the ex GF, can afford to repay him for the baht he invested where he will then recind the Usufruct.

[Barney]

well , i think? in case you have a real usufruct your name is also on the chanote in the back ...
the land can not be sold without your consent ...
in case of a right of habitation , it will not be registered at the back of the chanote ....(?)
do not forget a usufruct is only of interest when your wife dies before you , she can at any time withdraw this usufructure when she is still alive and this without your consent .... so the story's of falang kicking wife after dispute out of the home and keep living there is rubbish ....if she withdraws the usufruct it will be vice versa....(?)
to be really safe after a sudden dead of your wife ,is your wife leaving also a will stating you will inherit the land and home in case of her dead ....good luck to all....

Kopkei
You must have a different worded usufruct than myself
My name as I have stated is signed on 3 chanot's which make up the 1 parcel of land nominated on the usufruct.
My document states that the usufruct cannot be removed unless both parties agree. She cannot kick me off. This was actually made clear by the land office to my TG. He actually made certain she understood what she was signing.
Yes the land can be sold but the new buyer must understand and be aware that the usufruct is still legally in place as it is written. They cannot kick me off either. I have one of the original 3 stamped copies. She and the land office have the others.
There are many other line items in the usufruct and it is a long legal document.
I did this usufruct in case my TG dies and to stop the unknown family members clambering over the walls to take what is not theirs. I need to protect the young step daughter. The land will be nominated in my TG's will that it is passed to the young daughter, but I can stay under the usufruct and look after her.
This is just my usufruct and other may have differing documents.

[waanjai]

If that would have changed very recently, one would only have to make a scan of the last entry on the chanods - concerning the alien - and to show this here. It is in Thai only though.

Under the usufruct document in dual language I can virtually do what I like with the land for my lifetime, except maybe drill for oil or dig for minerals. She or her heirs can sell the property but it comes with the proviso in the document to the potential buyer that the usufruct stands firm

The examples of "except maybe drill for oil or dig for minerals" are far-fetched. A real usufruct is even by its own name defined as the allowance to "use the fruits" of a certain piece of land. And this meant in reality the right to e.g. grow banana trees or grow rice on that very land or open up a business.

If this is excluded You most certainly might have gotten the right of habitation only (important in its own right). But this can only be proven by the registered information now contained in the chanod. As only the chanods are made available to the public like e.g. banks or potential buyers with a legal interest.

[Barney]

If that would have changed very recently, one would only have to make a scan of the last entry on the chanods - concerning the alien - and to show this here. It is in Thai only though.

Under the usufruct document in dual language I can virtually do what I like with the land for my lifetime, except maybe drill for oil or dig for minerals. She or her heirs can sell the property but it comes with the proviso in the document to the potential buyer that the usufruct stands firm

The examples of "except maybe drill for oil or dig for minerals" are far-fetched. A real usufruct is even by its own name defined as the allowance to "use the fruits" of a certain piece of land. And this meant in reality the right to e.g. grow banana trees or grow rice on that very land or open up a business.

If this is excluded You most certainly might have gotten the right of habitation only (important in its own right). But this can only be proven by the registered information now contained in the chanod. As only the chanods are made available to the public like e.g. banks or potential buyers with a legal interest.

waanjai are standing on the same planet I am,
I said drill for oil in jest......
I have already said I can do what I like with the land, I have no idea what you are talking about with your statement below

If this is excluded You most certainly might have gotten the right of habitation only (important in its own right). But this can only be proven by the registered information now contained in the chanod. As only the chanods are made available to the public like e.g. banks or potential buyers with a legal interest.[/quote]

Do you have a usufruct or about to apply?
The original post was as per the title and the answer is yes I have made a complete and totally legal usufruct recently if you take June as recent enough.
Stop confusing the issue.

[waanjai]

Stop confusing the issue.

I am sorry, I am confusing You. Multiple reading might help.

Undisputed so far is the well known fact, that the Udon Thani provincial land office did not register usufructs but only granted rights of habitation to foreigners since some years. Proof of this was the piece of writing concerning the alien that was and still is entered onto the chanods affected. In col 2 there was a statement like "right of habitation 30 years or lifelong".

There are first news that things might have changed. Alas, there was no written proof offered yet.

[wazza]

Waanjai

I will stand corrected on this , but in every other country I have worked in for Oil and Gas Exploration, including minerals etc the resource below the ground is owned by the Sovereign State. Not by land owners.

Licences to explore are granted by the Sovereign state, and these licences allow companies to enter the areas , providing they have land access agreements in place. Land owners can appeal these rights to explore,

The resource that is removed is owned by the State and royalties collected by the State.

Compensation is paid to the land owner, for the interruption to their land , property etc.

[waanjai]

Waanjai
I will stand corrected on this , but in every other country I have worked in for Oil and Gas Exploration, including minerals etc the resource below the ground (ed.)is owned by the Sovereign State. Not by land owners.

I agree.To use the fruits of the land (Latin: usufruct) always encompassed the typical fruits of agriculture - whether it were banana trees, rice, mango. Papaya or potatoes*. Never oil ores or minerals which required special licences. The usufruct agreement was and is therefore still heavily used by the rich land-owners that allow their poorer copatriates to engage in agriculture on the land they still own.

*Though potatoes grow below the ground.

[wazza]

My simple summary

A lease protected by Law.

[Barney]

Stop confusing the issue.

I am sorry, I am confusing You. Multiple reading might help.

Undisputed so far is the well known fact, that the Udon Thani provincial land office did not register usufructs but only granted rights of habitation to foreigners since some years. Proof of this was the piece of writing concerning the alien that was and still is entered onto the chanods affected. In col 2 there was a statement like "right of habitation 30 years or lifelong".

There are first news that things might have changed. Alas, there was no written proof offered yet.

I am not confused, I know what I have in place and it is not what you are implying.
If you are saying I am incorrect in my comments about my personal situation and want me to provide you with a copy of my document as proof, this will not happen.
I have answered the original posters question on a personal level as advice only in the affirmative a number of times.

[wazza]

Sorry K

My money is with Barney and also my lawyer has confirmed the same ....

[sometimewoodworker]

If that would have changed very recently, one would only have to make a scan of the last entry on the chanods - concerning the alien - and to show this here. It is in Thai only though.

Under the usufruct document in dual language I can virtually do what I like with the land for my lifetime, except maybe drill for oil or dig for minerals. She or her heirs can sell the property but it comes with the proviso in the document to the potential buyer that the usufruct stands firm

The examples of "except maybe drill for oil or dig for minerals" are far-fetched. A real usufruct is even by its own name defined as the allowance to "use the fruits" of a certain piece of land. And this meant in reality the right to e.g. grow banana trees or grow rice on that very land or open up a business.

If this is excluded You most certainly might have gotten the right of habitation only (important in its own right). But this can only be proven by the registered information now contained in the chanod. As only the chanods are made available to the public like e.g. banks or potential buyers with a legal interest.

That is not complete, or completely correct, the chanote does have registered information but that information must be read with the registered document to find the full restrictions on the land use.

An usufruct can contain restrictions on the rights of the usufructuary. An usufruct is a contract and as with any contract it can vary. One of the ways legal firms justify their fees are by writing very long documents. An usufruct can be one page or many FWIW ours is more than 7 pages

[sometimewoodworker]

Also as there seems to be some confusion here is the beginning of the document registered in Udon Thani province this year

So it absolutely can be done and has been done.

Usufruct

[12345]

An usufruct can contain restrictions on the rights of the usufructuary. An usufruct is a contract and as with any contract it can vary. One of the ways legal firms justify their fees are by writing very long documents. An usufruct can be one page or many FWIW ours is more than 7 pages

Mine was a fill in the blanks form on the computer at land office, w/ 2 options.

1. Simply 'use' what is already there.

2. Use and allowed to 'modify', basically can build / knock down / rehab / refurbish any and all structures on land.

Cost, shy of 100 baht, no lawyers necessary. gov't employee / service clerk typing at computer simply asked, which do you want #1 or #2.

Way too easy. Inexpensive. Hardest part will be finding a parking spot if there in AM.