Missing Boys in Caves.

[arjay]

The Thai soccer team that has been stuck in a cave in northern Thailand for more than a week may need to remain there for months.
The boys will have to learn how to dive or may have to wait months until the flooding subsides before they can get out safely.
Rescuers found the 12 boys and their soccer coach alive and relatively healthy on Monday evening after 9 days of searches.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/thai- ... 52831.html

[Brian Davis]

The suggestions that the boys and coach might have to remain in the cave for a long time yet is daunting. Excuse me if I'm naive, but is there no scope for boring down an access shaft into an unflooded section, as close as possible to the group, but without risk of falling rock etc. I understand the rock is limestone, 'soft' I think, but perhaps the terrain would make it impossible to set up a rig, or the depth of drilling required too great?

[bluejets]

The suggestions that the boys and coach might have to remain in the cave for a long time yet is daunting. Excuse me if I'm naive, but is there no scope for boring down an access shaft into an unflooded section, as close as possible to the group, but without risk of falling rock etc. I understand the rock is limestone, 'soft' I think, but perhaps the terrain would make it impossible to set up a rig, or the depth of drilling required too great?

According to news reports here in Aus that's pretty much an alternative plan as it currently stands now.

[vlad]

The 3 Man team English Team who are all Volunteers were Richard Stanton a retired firefighter and IT Consultant John Volanthan from Somerset these two are known to be the most renowned Cave Divers in the World it was Richard Stanton who was the 1st to break surface and speak to the boys. He was given an MbE for rescuing 6 Army personnel he rescued from a deep mine complex in Mexico and John Volanthan is the only 1 ever to dive England's deepest cave in Wookey Hole thought to be impossible to dive. They I am sure will be giving advice and the best way for the Thai team to get the boy's out safely and quickly.

[tamada]

The suggestions that the boys and coach might have to remain in the cave for a long time yet is daunting. Excuse me if I'm naive, but is there no scope for boring down an access shaft into an unflooded section, as close as possible to the group, but without risk of falling rock etc. I understand the rock is limestone, 'soft' I think, but perhaps the terrain would make it impossible to set up a rig, or the depth of drilling required too great?

The technology and expertise is out there. The oil exploration industry has been able to erect large drilling platforms in remote and inhospitable jungle mountains for decades. Heli-portable modular equipment, directional drilling techniques, rescue pods... it's all been done before.

[Lone Star]

The suggestions that the boys and coach might have to remain in the cave for a long time yet is daunting. Excuse me if I'm naive, but is there no scope for boring down an access shaft into an unflooded section, as close as possible to the group, but without risk of falling rock etc. I understand the rock is limestone, 'soft' I think, but perhaps the terrain would make it impossible to set up a rig, or the depth of drilling required too great?

The technology and expertise is out there. The oil exploration industry has been able to erect large drilling platforms in remote and inhospitable jungle mountains for decades. Heli-portable modular equipment, directional drilling techniques, rescue pods... it's all been done before.

I was thinking same, tamada -- specifically directional drilling.

At least they are still alive and can receive food, electrolytes and other supplements.

[Brian Davis]

Honestly, can you believe this? TAT, Tourism Authority of Thailand, is already talking about promoting the cave and surrounding area as a tourist attraction. Talk about premature. The rescue is some way from complete success, even that has some doubts about it and they're thinking essentially of money-making. Amazing Thailand? I'd say ****ing incredulous! No doubt slap on the backs for those involved. Personally, I think their lack of common sense matches that of that Deputy Army General.

[Galee]

None of this would have happened if access to the caves were blocked off by lockable metal gates. The gates could be unlocked during the dry season when it is safe.

[AlexO]

The 3 Man team English Team who are all Volunteers were Richard Stanton a retired firefighter and IT Consultant John Volanthan from Somerset these two are known to be the most renowned Cave Divers in the World it was Richard Stanton who was the 1st to break surface and speak to the boys. He was given an MbE for rescuing 6 Army personnel he rescued from a deep mine complex in Mexico and John Volanthan is the only 1 ever to dive England's deepest cave in Wookey Hole thought to be impossible to dive. They I am sure will be giving advice and the best way for the Thai team to get the boy's out safely and quickly.

"People who know what their doing". Funny that the the Thai Governor has been booted into touch but other high politico,s are saying 'dive them out' is the ONLY option. From the profile pictures any drilling would be between 900 and 1000m deep. setting that kind of operation up with just airlifting would be both time consuming and 'expensive'. Notice how the Brit divers who are acknowledged as 'best in the world' are saying nothing to the media. Wonder why.

[vlad]

There just doing there job what there good at. They wont be celebrating and dont need to get the pats on there Shoulders. There experts at what they do when it comes to Extracting the boys the cave Specialists I would imagine will be given the job as there cave rescuers, but it wont be easy if there going to use Respirators on them.

[Marcosteffano]

None of this would have happened if access to the caves were blocked off by lockable metal gates. The gates could be unlocked during the dry season when it is safe.

Yes but it involves health and safety, common sense and as we all know thailand is a bit short on that one.

[maaka]

if it is like other big cases that I have been involved with here, you dont get to speak, you dont get to front the show, or get to see certain documents, or visit certain places, or talk to vital witness's, you are just there to consultant, or do the task they do not have the expertise to do, and anyway, I wouldnt be sticking my neck out in the media re methods to evac these boys, in case it all turned pear shape, and like I said, Dick wont get to make that decision, only give input..As much as the locals ask for help, they wont sing your praises in the end, just mutter a little tune if that..its about face again.

[Vlad123456]

Im surprised no 1s asked for work permits lol

[AlexO]

There just doing there job what there good at. They wont be celebrating and dont need to get the pats on there Shoulders. There experts at what they do when it comes to Extracting the boys the cave Specialists I would imagine will be given the job as there cave rescuers, but it wont be easy if there going to use Respirators on them.

VLAD
I mentioned this because all of a sudden senior governors and military types are being quoted as diving them out "Is the only option". Internationally, advice is this is the absolute last resort because of the danger but perhaps and only perhaps have the HI,SO's decided that a prolonged rescue period will be too expensive. I would love to hear what the experts say but thats never going to happen. Seriously concerned for the youngsters now.

[BJS]

I learnt to scuba dive and i can tell you its freaken scarey..and that was in a 5 star resort pool.
I was a semi fit 40 year old i surf and swim alot.
Lesson 2 was on a beach in clear calm water of koh Tao ..its not normal in your head the breath under water..getting your head and mind used to that takes getting used to.
Lesson a test 3.
Was at sail rock off Samui its know for having a cave in the rock you can swim threw..
I did this in clear water calm day and was ----- my self.
You panic you die.
These kids cant swim and cant scuba dive.
Cant see any thing...they will panic.
Wait to dry season if its safe to do

My 1cent .

[chewbacca]

I'm a scuba instructor and former combat medic.

Opinion Only:

There is evidence that staying in the cave will deteriorate them further. Especially for months which is a joke.

These are not paramecium in a petri dish. They won't last as long in there as people think. They'll start dropping in about 2-3 weeks of complications resulting from the environment.

Officials love to drag things out, -they're just making choice in relation to their own careers. Of course no official would dare to win, especially if it's thought to upstage the intents of someone above them. And so on. They drag this out months and think everyone's gonna stick around? All the talent will disappear and it'll just be a skeleton crew of yes men, deep mud, and broken spirits.

This is an emergency rescue. During a fire you don't have time to think. You do what must be done knowing that not everyone is going to make it.

This unfortunately this is the same.

In teaching kids scuba which I have done before this will be nothing like that. If full face juvenile re-breathers exist they'd better get them on site stat. Then what teaching is required? Monitoring air? Monitoring depth? Monitoring time? Calculating proposed dive depth and time. Measuring current? It's all being done by the evacuation guy.

Yes, there might end up a body count on this one. The coach will die of depression anyways as is currently reflected in his measurement in the "yellow" where the kids all measured in the "green".

If he's not ready to off himself now, he will be when he emerges and faces the wrath of the press, parents, and public, and sees visual evidence in the form of huge crowds, the sheer magnitude of his error, even though he probably never meant any harm.

So pull Coach out first. Get him to the 10m cavern first. Then the rest of the way 8 to 12 hours later. He's the test case: If he dies on the trip we know it cannot be done by the kids. If he lives then evac the strongest one by one till only the weakest remain. Then use the extra space to get them fit.

Then it's a race against deteriorating health and some engineering move to get access to the closest top side route out of there. Not sure if they have such a device but if something could give their exact GPS, as well as depth, it would be a great help. Might already have it. Perhaps the Brit cavers will now discover that topside route.

Those kids will be real hot to get out of there. Dive them out while they're motivated.

Here's the recent map from BBC that shows the halfway point they can be got to. Got to say England way ahead on this one on many counts. Glad to have served with some of your guys and Australians too. Top people really, through and through. Pragmatism personified. Scared of nothing.

Does such a device exist?: MURK LIGHT / MURK STROBE Positioning these would solve visibility issues. FAST BLINK for tunnels no go at turns no go (see map, there are some acute turns at forks where missing the turn means failure (can't turn around). STEADY SLOW BLINK for true route forward. Maybe doesn't exist yet. The reason I ask is I had one, a strobe that I got from a Navy surplus shop. It had some kind of dangerous chemical seeming battery composition. But when turned on, it emitted an extremely powerful strobe and a cracking sound. Always seems like it was about to explode. I could have it at depths of 20 and 30 meters and the boat guys could see it easily after dusk. Never saw any small size ones like on the market though.

[glalt]

The navy seals are talented and skillful but cave diving is not one of their strong points. I'm a certified diver and it is my opinion that cave divers and wreck divers have to have a death wish. I refused to go through fairly large holes in coral at shallow depths where there was still light from the surface. Just thinking about getting stuck in a tight hole in total darkness makes my stomach turn over. Being claustrophobic totally eliminates any sort of cave diving.

[parrot]

It's during emergencies like this......or the one at the link below.....that help remind me of one of the drawbacks to living in a developing country.....where the EMS services aren't what they are in my home country. It's the price we pay for the luxury of living here. I doubt any amount of comparison to the better systems in our home country are going to fix the problem any time soon.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

[GT93]

I think the kids are up for it and it can be done successfully.

[tamada]

"People who know what their doing". Funny that the the Thai Governor has been booted into touch but other high politico,s are saying 'dive them out' is the ONLY option. From the profile pictures any drilling would be between 900 and 1000m deep. setting that kind of operation up with just airlifting would be both time consuming and 'expensive'. Notice how the Brit divers who are acknowledged as 'best in the world' are saying nothing to the media. Wonder why.

I really do hope they are quietly pressing on with alternative plans for a drilled extraction passage. It took 33 days of drilling to about 700 m target depth to get the Chilean miners escape route set up. Locating such a rig which is commonly used in mining should not be too difficult in the region. However, when drilling a large diameter hole in any surface, a smaller pilot hole needs to be drilled first and this expanded in stages by the bigger drill(s). The oil exploration industry uses heli-portable rigs and they are also very common in SE Asian jungles. With oil exploration off the boil, they are 2 a penny. They could get 3 or 4 of these set up to drill multiple 'pilot' holes to a cavern that the trapped guys can access. They could try setting up over identified deep channels and potholes to make the drill effort more efficient and faster. Once they have a rig making better progress than the others, that becomes the primary drill site for the big rig.

I was working in Myanmar recently and we evaluated some of the hand-powered, percussion drilling methods that they have been using for decades in jungle oil exploration. Quite effective for 'starter' holes and everything is man-portable. get it in as far as you can on tractors and then walk it on site. The sooner the Chiang Rai rescue organizers get started, the better. Then they can get the heli-portable rigs in and then the big rig.

Anyway, I really hope that the expense is not a factor in these deliberations.

I think the UK divers have done their bit and aren't attention seekers but I hope are still involved with rescue suggestions BEYOND diving them out. They have experience in locating and recovering people (and bodies) in water-filled caves but this extraction requires a whole lot of looking into what has worked before and plenty thinking outside the box too.