A Shadow of Darkness From Australia.

[Whistler]

Hmm.

Daughter in laws brother was in 2nd Squad. He is one messed up young guy, this is one of the units under investigation. He has had heaps of his mates taken their own lives over the 10 years since he was blown up and discharged minus 2 legs.

[AlexO]

^ I'm a bit confused now. Are you saying the filthy evil western soldiers are there to help the farmers try to live a near normal life?

Yes. As near normal as can be seen to be from a western point of view, or do you believe the Taliban way is better??

[tamada]

^ From the Afghan farmer's point if view, probably infinitely better. He knew who his enemies were and knew what they wanted and played one against the other for any small but significant gains. He is only a farmer after all.

Suddenly the skies are filled by his drop-in and armed to the teeth "liberators" who he doesn't understand whilst they don't understand him, his culture or his nation's history. They do bugger all to make his life easier or safer and in their frustration, kill some of his friends.

Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan... they're all interchangeable.

[jackspratt]

Once again UM members are showing their absolute expertise on a delicate subject and throwing the hang em high guilty verdict out there with gay abandon.....

Can you point out who on this thread has stated the soldiers are guilty ..... let alone "hang 'em high"

"A huge stain on the reputation of the Australian Defence Force, and a slap in the face of those who served, and continue to serve, with honour."

Your words Pratt, by inference you presume guilt, or at least agreement with the rag report. OR DID YOU JUST FORGET.

Rag report.... OK.

[Whistler]

AlexO

I have no idea why Afghan people in Afghanistan, behave like Afghans in Afghanistan. What a mystery?

They should shun the Taliban, in fact, tell them to go and get F!cked. Now their minds are enlightened, the Taliban will no doubt go, Oh ----. They are westerners now and we cannot touch them.

The Afghans will now smugly understand that Western values will protect them, they should embrace these guys as their saviours.

[AlexO]

AlexO

I have no idea why Afghan people in Afghanistan, behave like Afghans in Afghanistan. What a mystery?

They should shun the Taliban, in fact, tell them to go and get F!cked. Now their minds are enlightened, the Taliban will no doubt go, Oh ----. They are westerners now and we cannot touch them.

The Afghans will now smugly understand that Western values will protect them, they should embrace these guys as their saviours.

So the average Afghan (not just farmers) has maintained the previous Taliban way of life, he does not send his daughters to school, he still attends the weekly public executions, does not listen to music etc. Do you really believe that the Taliban way was the traditional Afghan way of life. The Taliban are a bunch of Islamic extremists same as Daesh (ISIS) The vast majority of Afghans hate the foreign fighters in the Taliban who forced them further back into the stone age that they had emerged from through fear and extreme violence.

[Whistler]

Alexo, have it your way. Not that either of our opinions make a damned bit of difference.

You said the vast majority of Afghans, how many do you know? I have only met a couple. You seem to know a lot about the broader community there, what is our connection?

[jackspratt]

I wonder whether the average Afghan (not just farmer) is worried about the distinction between the Taliban murdering their family member(s), and the Australian SAS - who have been sent there to rescue them from the Taliban - murdering (allegedly) the same family member(s).

[Barney]

JacksPratt
Why would you even consider thinking that comparison of Aussies and farmers.
Apples and oranges.
Your continuation of insinuation to bring the Aussie armed forces into guilt and the thought that they were all complicit in so called atrocities, it is strange in why you take this path. You obviously believe all the ABC tell and show you and go with their flow.
It was only a report to be acted on.
Our Prime minister and others have already told the Afghans that we are sorry and recompense may be forthcoming. Is a total disgrace. At a time when suicide is at an all time high in the armed forces why not just let the report and comments run its course. What are you trying to prove with your negativity. I can’t see a reason.
One would think it was only the Aussies who have ever entered Afghanistan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jackspratt]

It's news around the world, Barney - not just the ABC - and is based on a very credible report prepared over 4 years by a senior Supreme Court judge.

It may not be good news, or even news that you like, but news it is, and I will continue to post it when/if there are further developments.

[tamada]

AlexO

I have no idea why Afghan people in Afghanistan, behave like Afghans in Afghanistan. What a mystery?

They should shun the Taliban, in fact, tell them to go and get F!cked. Now their minds are enlightened, the Taliban will no doubt go, Oh ----. They are westerners now and we cannot touch them.

The Afghans will now smugly understand that Western values will protect them, they should embrace these guys as their saviours.

So the average Afghan (not just farmers) has maintained the previous Taliban way of life, he does not send his daughters to school, he still attends the weekly public executions, does not listen to music etc. Do you really believe that the Taliban way was the traditional Afghan way of life. The Taliban are a bunch of Islamic extremists same as Daesh (ISIS) The vast majority of Afghans hate the foreign fighters in the Taliban who forced them further back into the stone age that they had emerged from through fear and extreme violence.

There's an interesting multi-part documentary on Aljazeera at the moment called Blood and Tears: French Decolonisation. It covers their Indo-China withdrawal as well as their subsequent struggles to hold on to colonial power in north and sub-Saharan Africa. A justification for maintaining their colonies was an oft stated desire to continue with "civilizing" these disparate nations. This thread of faux altruism persisted until the French public gradually became aware that the costs of propping-up favored foreign rulers against growing local discontent was causing France itself to fall behind their peers and allies in post-WWII reconstruction and economic development. The rest is history.

I don't think that any foreign power that has dabbled in armed conflict with Afghanistan has had the well-being and enlightenment of the Afghan people enemy at heart.

[AlexO]

I don't think that any foreign power that has dabbled in armed conflict with Afghanistan has had the well-being and enlightenment of the Afghan people enemy at heart.

Absolutely correct Tam, the last one, it was to clear out the Taliban rulers who were offering shelter and training facilities to other 'anti western/anti non Islamic Nation' terrorist groups in the hope that there would be no more mass slaughters such as 9/11.
Remember that the Taliban were basically defeated by Afghans with the help of quite limited numbers of Western Special Forces and air support.
The stated aim of the initial numbers of ground forces deployed after the defeat of the Taliban was to train Afghan Army and Police, at the request of the new Afghan Government, so they could take on the role of protectors of the people and a limited number of Western troops deployed as a protection screen while the rebuilding and modernisation of Afghanistan (with their-well being and aim of helping them emerge from the almost stone age existence the Russians and Taliban had imposed on them) was undertaken at the same time. Unfortunately this did not prove to be the outcome, but thats for another discussion.

[Whistler]

As Westerners, we keep on looking at places like this as countries. They are not. They are lines on a map, drawn by Europeans that encompass many different tribes and ethnic groups that have been rivals for centuries.

Too make sweeping statements about what Afghans want is simplistic.

Frankly, not worth one life for American, British, Australian etc troops. Let them sort out their own mess. When terrorist groups take shelter in that part of the world, as did Osama Bin Laden, send in drones or airstrikes and kick the snot out of them. We dont need troops on the ground fighting an unwinable 20 year war.

[AlexO]

As Westerners, we keep on looking at places like this as countries. They are not. They are lines on a map, drawn by Europeans that encompass many different tribes and ethnic groups that have been rivals for centuries.

Too make sweeping statements about what Afghans want is simplistic.

Frankly, not worth one life for American, British, Australian etc troops. Let them sort out their own mess. When terrorist groups take shelter in that part of the world, as did Osama Bin Laden, send in drones or airstrikes and kick the snot out of them. We dont need troops on the ground fighting an unwinable 20 year war.

It was not just an Afghan mess, the dictatorship under the Taliban also caused various situations in a number of Western Nations with the 9/11 tragedies being the straw that broke the camels back, so to say. If the Afghans had just happily went on producing heroin probably no one would have turned a blind eye to their situation.

So really explain the difference to me that "kicking the snot out of them" by indiscriminate bombing should not be viewed as an other form of breaking the 'rules of combat' How many pilots know how many farmers or wounded combatants are at the receiving end of their hardware?. Maybe not so much 'face to face' or 'heat of battle' but end result is the same.

[Whistler]

Most bombings and drone Tracks these days can not be described as indescrimate bombing. Laser guided rockets etc can be finely targeted. Not perfect, but far less damaging than thousands of ground troops. The enormous benefit, no western casualties or damaged lives through trauma.

[AlexO]

Dont disagree Whistler, except if you are on the receiving end but just when do you stop "kicking the snot out of them". You need to use ground troops in what was originally (in Afghanistan) a training and policing role. After the Afghans basically kicked out the Taliban (with a bit of help from the West) they requested help in training their own military and police forces as well as some cover forces to help 'police' the reconstruction works. The western powers then went and started a wee fight in Iraq to get rid of SH and that allowed the pro-Taliban/Drug Lords forces to re-establish themselves in Afghanistan. The rest is history. The main point is that uniformed ground troops being held to the 'rules of war' against insurgents/terrorists who dress the same as the civilian population ties virtually both hands behind these guys hands and of course small individual mistakes are going to be made. Small point, during WW's 1 and 2 anybody carrying out acts of aggression/sabotage/spying etc while either in civilian clothing or false military uniforms were subject to summary execution as this was deemed against the Rules of War, I think this rule has never been rescinded (maybe the real lawyers on this forum could advise) Anyway, everyone is getting their scanties in a twist as the only parts of the report that started this thread in the public domain are Part1, the introduction and Part3 the unchallenged conclusions reached by some chair bound senior brass. Part2, the evidence and witness statements are all totally censored and await full disclosure in a court of law if it even gets to that outcome.

[Whistler]

AlexO. I understand your arguement.

For me, my views have been formed by the outcome. After 20 years, nothing has changed so why go into a fight you can never win. This part of the world is unchanged for much more than 100 years of Western attempts to change, there are are not enough troops on the ground to ever change it, and troops do not change culture.

Sad though it may be, these peoples should be left to settle their own squabbles as long as they do not let that spill out into our world. If it does, then we retaliate but not by placing ground troops at risk. We have better choices.

You are also wrong about summary execution, of course it happened, but it was never a rule of law, quite the opposite.

[AlexO]

'guys hands' should read 'guys backs', just before the literal perfectionists jump in.

[AlexO]

You are also wrong about summary execution, of course it happened, but it was never a rule of law, quite the opposite.

Okay maybe 'summary' execution was a bit too emotional but just how many unlawful combatants were found 'not guilty' after a lawful trial during the 2 World Wars ( most of these trials took less than 30 minutes as there were no ambulance chasers willing to put their heads above the parapet to gouge hundreds of thousands in legal aid claims )

"The term ‘unlawful combatant’ became better known during the recent armed conflict in Afghanistan, when the Bush administration announced its decision to classify the captured Taliban soldiers and al-Qaeda fighters as unlawful combatants and, as a consequence, to deny them prisoner-of-war status.*1 This has provoked a heated debate over the exact status and protection of such persons. In view of the current security situation around the world, it has been asserted ever more frequently that unlawful combatants are not entitled to any protection whatsoever under international humanitarian law."

Therefor the Rules of War are not a factor in a terrorist insurgency for combatants hiding under the cover of civilian clothing.

[Whistler]

Alex, the US also declared that waterboarding was not torture. The CIA whisked captured combatents to Pakiston, Egypt and other places to be tortured. The US held combatents in Guantanimo without trial. Let's not look at the US as the paragon of virtue. They have morphed into arrogant thugs over the past 30 or 40 years or more. Murdering foreign leaders like Allende, financing terrorist (sorry freedom fighters), etc etc.

They are morally corrupt.

The Geneva convention means nothing to the US, we need to look at more enlightened nations for moral leadership these days.