A Shadow of Darkness From Australia.

[Whistler]

should be plural posts

I only liked the cute one

[jackspratt]

SAS veteran Oliver Schulz charged with war crime of murder over killing of Afghan man in field

A decorated former SAS soldier shown in a Four Corners story shooting an Afghan man in a wheat field has become the first Australian serviceman or veteran to be charged with a war crime under Australian law.

Former trooper Oliver Schulz, 41, was arrested by the Australian Federal Police at Jindabyne in the New South Wales Snowy Mountains this morning, after a years-long investigation into alleged war crimes in Afghanistan......

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-20/ ... /102119554

Mr Schultz will now get his day in court to test whether he has broken the law.

It will be interesting to see if there are any further charges laid, as the original report said:

.....19 current or former soldiers will face possible prosecution .....

[Whistler]

A lone wolf, Impossible to believe. Tip of the iceberg, almost certainly.

Part of the assessment in selecting SAS soldiers is to see if they have some 'attitude'. Valuable for the toughness need for the job, but a double edged sword.

Having an ex SAS vet in my extended family, these guys are a worry.

[Khun Paul]

As a VET As it were, it is scandalous that SOldies sent by he Government to fight for the country then gets prosecuted by that same government for ostensibly committing crimes. by breaking the law,..................YET the other side shall we callthem have XERO LAWS To follow or even if they had fail daily to adhere op them get away scot free, we had it in N IRELAnd ( still ongoing ) and I can tell you we had to follw the rules they did not, nor in Aden or for that matter elsewhere.
Bloody shambles the Military are pretty good at sorting out the basd apples and in my book the military should be dealing wih this not some namby pamby civilians, stating they want the truth.................that is balderdash !!!!! All they are looking for is a scapegoat to carry the can . Sod the poor soldier !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Whistler]

If I read that the nearest star is x million light years away, I accept that but the figure is beyond my comprehension.

Ditto young men facing death in a foreign land, what the hell are they going through to deliver on a decision made by politicians and military brass that may never have seem a shot fired.

At the same time, the Geneva convention tries to put a cap on what can be done and what is forbidden.

The two drivers are in utter conflict.

[jackspratt]

This is not any poor old soldier - he is/was a member of the SAS, the elite and most highly trained soldiers in the Australian Army.

[Khun Paul]

Ah yes the fabled Geneva Convention a tool often used especially in WW11 to counter the horrendous conditions faced by Prisoners of War and normally checked by MOST Armies to make sure that their fighting personnel do not breach that code.

BUT we forge the opposition to most of those Diplomaically tasked with maintaining peace etc, either know or unable to read or just do not care about the Geneva Convention and treat it as paper to be used in a toilet. Thereby those legally there are also have to work with one hand tied behind their backs .

AND NOW the same government that sent th9s chap os going to try him for breaches instead of saying `, bugger off to the complainant

[Whistler]

Could not disagree more.

From both a moral and a practical standpoint.

From a moral standpoint, we should not sink to the lowest level. All wars are bad, but the Geneva convention which was framed after WWI has had practical benefits over the past 100 years. While flouted by baser nations, we had WWII free of poisoned gas, other atrocities such as cluster bombs, torture etc have been reduced if not eliminated. We recognise that war is between combatants and not civilians to a greater extent than before. Civilized people hate war, but at least we attempt to thwart Mutilations, Killing of babies, torture, murder, genocide etc, etc. These objectionable practices debase the nations that practice them and lessens their claims to leadership

From a practical standpoint, look at what happened at the end of WWII and see the best way to treat the enemy. We did not go on a rampage of murder, torture, destruction etc, with the exception of Russia, we rebuilt the enemy and turned them into our friends. After WWI, we did the opposite, the treaty of Versailles setup conditions to lead Germany into WWII. Instead, an enlightened approach converted Germany and Japan into peaceful nations, despite the atrocities they committed during the war. Taking the high road is always more sensible than taking the low road.

Of course, we have observed nations flouting these ideals on occasion, but that is not longer the norm for first world nations.

[jackspratt]

AND NOW the same government that sent th9s chap os going to try him for breaches instead of saying `, bugger off to the complainant

I am happy to be corrected, but I believe if the case proceeds to trial, the complainant in this case will be one Charlie Windsor.

[Whistler]

AND NOW the same government that sent th9s chap os going to try him for breaches instead of saying `, bugger off to the complainant

I am happy to be corrected, but I believe if the case proceeds to trial, the complainant in this case will be one Charlie Windsor.

Possibly correct.

To the best of my knowledge, the victim has not lodged any complaint. Of course that is what the whole process is all about standing up for victims who have no voice.

For those rthat poo poo this adherence to the Geneva Convention, let me pose a question, how many lives has this convention saved in the last 100 years? Nobody knows of course, but I would suggest in the millions.

In this case, the chain of command and the politicians that involved in the war, will probably not be charged, so some real inequities. That however, should not absolve the soldiers, but should be taken into consideration when sentencing.

[marjamlew]

The result of the Aston by election has cast a shadow of darkness over Spud Dutton's Liberal leadership future. First time in over 100 years that a government has won a by election in an opposition held seat and on top of that the Mornington Peninsula has always been such a conservative stronghold. The Victorian loathing of Dutton, Morrison and Josh Frydenburg and the treatment of Victorians by the conservative government during the pandemic coming home to roost. The news just keeps getting better and better for the Albanese government and for all progressive and thinking Australians.

[Whistler]

This right wing attempt to hijack Australian politics started with the lying rat, John Howard and reached its zenith with Abbott.

Their balloon has popped.

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[AlexO]

Could not disagree more.

From both a moral and a practical standpoint.

From a moral standpoint, we should not sink to the lowest level. All wars are bad, but the Geneva convention which was framed after WWI has had practical benefits over the past 100 years. While flouted by baser nations, we had WWII free of poisoned gas, other atrocities such as cluster bombs, torture etc have been reduced if not eliminated. We recognise that war is between combatants and not civilians to a greater extent than before. Civilized people hate war, but at least we attempt to thwart Mutilations, Killing of babies, torture, murder, genocide etc, etc. These objectionable practices debase the nations that practice them and lessens their claims to leadership

From a practical standpoint, look at what happened at the end of WWII and see the best way to treat the enemy. We did not go on a rampage of murder, torture, destruction etc, with the exception of Russia, we rebuilt the enemy and turned them into our friends. After WWI, we did the opposite, the treaty of Versailles setup conditions to lead Germany into WWII. Instead, an enlightened approach converted Germany and Japan into peaceful nations, despite the atrocities they committed during the war. Taking the high road is always more sensible than taking the low road.

Of course, we have observed nations flouting these ideals on occasion, but that is not longer the norm for first world nations.

Sorry Whistler, but to what level do you think combat troops sink too when involved in life threatening struggles. You are no longer a logical, thinking soldier. You are a beast who's only aim is to survive by whatever means possible. The guy who is accused of "murder" did not kick down a door and shoot someone in bed. If he did do what he is supposed to have done, it was in the heat of battle with adrenaline taking over your every sense except to survive. These people are face to face with death and perhaps mistakes are made, but is it a mistake that deserves to be tried as a crime? What difference is there in a pilot dropping a bomb or an artillery man firing huge shells from up to 20Km away and causing civilian deaths, probably the fear factor for the man involved in an up close fire fight that's all. Incidentally your comment about "attitude" is what the SF selection courses try to weed out. The Brit SF aim to reject your average Rambo style Para or Bootneck for more controlled under stress individuals.
The ABC have been banging this 'hang them high the filthy murdering scum' drum for over 2 years supported by one or two of UM's more avid posters. I for one hope all the money they're 'investigations' have cost them is a complete waste.

[Whistler]

Alex i understand what you are saying, and that viewpoint is shared by many. I was never a soldier but listened to the stories my father told me after 18 years in Britiish army. He, like me abhorred cold blooded killing.

He was also attilery, he was an artillery instructor for Australian army when we moved here. Shelling a target of military importance is very different to targeting civilians, look at Ukraine to see how truly awful that strategy is.

[AlexO]

Whistler.
I agree with your sentiments on cold blooded killing but, can I put forward what might become quite an emotional issue for you. Carpet bombing Dresden, bombing Baghdad and other cities in Iraq, how many Allied pilots, Wing Commanders, Politicians were tried for murder? Then you have firing high explosive shells and rockets on map coordinates and "hoping" (a) you actually hit the target (a lot more likely these days with advances in technology) and (b) there are no noncombatants in the kill zone, any different? I hold the theory that 'over the horizon' bombing or shelling is as close to cold blooded killing as can be imagined. The operators of the launch systems are at a very minimal personal risk and therefor are just carrying out a command to fire on an unseen target. Compare that to the stress felt by close combat troops who are fighting an enemy who is not in uniform, has no compulsion of killing as many of 'his' enemy as possible and then claiming he is a farmer etc caught up in the fight and might, if you turn your back, pick up a weapon and kill you. The heat of battle cannot be compared. I find it abhorrent that politically driven media and politicians seek to claim self serving kudos for the individual harassment of service personnel 'always' below a certain rank it will be noted, under the pretext of justice.

[Whistler]

Alex,

I don't think our thoughts are not that far apart.

[jackspratt]

Soldier against soldiers GT. Looks like about 20 ex SAS servicemen are prepared to stand up in court and attest to the grave sins of Bang Bang Benny. The son of a supreme court judge. Will be interesting to see just how far privilege can get ya in Australia.

Mr Roberts-Smith has lost his massive defamation case in Oz. This is a reporters summary of part of the trial judge's judgement:

Ben Roberts-Smith VC, Australia’s most decorated living soldier, has lost a defamation case in which he was accused of multiple murders of unarmed civilians in Afghanistan, a federal court judge has found.

Justice Anthony Besanko found that, on the balance of probabilities, Roberts-Smith kicked a handcuffed prisoner off a cliff in Darwan in 2012, before ordering a subordinate Australian soldier to shoot the injured man dead.

And in 2009, Roberts-Smith ordered the execution of an elderly man found hiding in a tunnel in a bombed-out compound, as well as murdering a disabled man with a prosthetic leg during the same mission, using a para minimi machine gun.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... aincontent

It will be interesting to see if Kerry Stokes, one of Australia's richest men, and a War junkie, continues to fund Roberts-Smith during the inevitable appeal.

[Whistler]

I think this is a welcome spotlight in the dark.

In many countries, this criminal would have been protected, not so from this court. Forget about Kerry Stokes, there will be plenty supporting the murderer, soldier doing his duty etc etc.

[jackspratt]

More to ponder.

Victoria Cross recipient Ben Roberts-Smith directed one of his SAS comrades to kill an elderly man who was dragged from a mosque in Afghanistan, according to allegations examined by the Brereton inquiry into alleged war crimes.

ABC Investigations can reveal the disgraced war hero's alleged involvement in the killing, which sparked a diplomatic row for Australia.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-08/ ... /102447030

Note: this is in addition to the findings of Besanko J: in the recent defamation trial.

[noosard]

A community tree planting event in memory of The Queen of England and her 70 years of service to the Commonwealth will take place in Geraldton this weekend.

The City of Greater Geraldton received grant funding from the Australian Government’s Planting Trees for The Queens Jubilee Program, a three-year program that began in 2021, to plant 200 trees in the Wonthella Bushland Reserve.

But

A community tree planting event in Western Australia has been shut down by a local Aboriginal elder citing the state’s controversial new cultural heritage laws.

Shane Van Styn, Mayor of the City of Greater Geraldton, 420km north of Perth, said in a Facebook post that Sunday’s tree planting at Wonthella Bushland Reserve had been called off as a result of the Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Act.

“Today, attendees made their way to Wonthella Bush Reserve to plant trees in honour of the late Queen Elizabeth’s Jubilee,” he wrote.

“Despite checking the site online prior for any Aboriginal heritage, of which there was none, a respected local knowledge holder shut down proceedings on the basis of ground disturbance and the new Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Act and the ‘significance’ of the site to the family.”

WA’s new laws introduce a complex three-tiered system, under which anyone on more than 1100 square metres of land will be required to apply for a permit from their LACHS before carrying out certain activities, such as digging fences, planting trees or clearing tracks.

The landowner will be required to pay the LACHS to assess their application.

Under the fee guidelines, one senior Aboriginal consultant – defined as “an Aboriginal person who is recognised within their community as being senior and as having higher levels of knowledge, expertise, skills and authority in relation to [Aboriginal cultural heritage]” – can charge up to $160 an hour, or $1200 per day.

A LACHS chief executive can charge up to $280 an hour, while “other expert service providers” can charge up to $300 an hour.

An additional 20 per cent loading may apply to very remote areas, while costs such as travel, accommodation and meals “may be included in a fee structure