British Colonialism and Its Policies

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British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Udon Map » April 29, 2023, 8:06 pm

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
April 29, 2023, 2:40 pm
It used to be a dictum of British Imperial policy to never admit that you are wrong. If you do, it sends the wrong message to those under colonial rule.
I know little of British colonialism and its policies, but LMY's post got me curious, so I started browsing around the internet. I thought that this might make an interesting topic for discussion. Here's a column that appeared in The Guardian in 2011 written by controversial writer and admitted KGB agent Richard Gott.
In his speech to the Conservative party conference this month, David Cameron looked back with Tory nostalgia to the days of empire: "Britannia didn't rule the waves with armbands on," he pointed out, suggesting that the shadow of health and safety did not hover over Britain's imperial operations when the British were building "a great nation". He urged the nation to revive the spirit that had once allowed Britain to find a new role after the empire's collapse.

Tony Blair had a similar vision. "I value and honour our history enormously," he said in a speech in 1997, but he thought that Britain's empire should be the cause of "neither apology nor hand-wringing"; it should be used to further the country's global influence. And when Britain and France, two old imperial powers that had occupied Libya after 1943, began bombing that country earlier this year, there was much talk in the Middle East of the revival of European imperialism.

Half a century after the end of empire, politicians of all persuasions still feel called upon to remember our imperial past with respect. Yet few pause to notice that the descendants of the empire-builders and of their formerly subject peoples now share the small island whose inhabitants once sailed away to change the face of the world. Considerations of empire today must take account of two imperial traditions: that of the conquered as well as the conquerors. Traditionally, that first tradition has been conspicuous by its absence.

Cameron was right about the armbands. The creation of the British empire caused large portions of the global map to be tinted a rich vermilion, and the colour turned out to be peculiarly appropriate. Britain's empire was established, and maintained for more than two centuries, through bloodshed, violence, brutality, conquest and war. Not a year went by without large numbers of its inhabitants being obliged to suffer for their involuntary participation in the colonial experience. Slavery, famine, prison, battle, murder, extermination – these were their various fates.

Yet the subject peoples of empire did not go quietly into history's goodnight. Underneath the veneer of the official record exists a rather different story. Year in, year out, there was resistance to conquest, and rebellion against occupation, often followed by mutiny and revolt – by individuals, groups, armies and entire peoples. At one time or another, the British seizure of distant lands was hindered, halted and even derailed by the vehemence of local opposition.

A high price was paid by the British involved. Settlers, soldiers, convicts – those people who freshly populated the empire – were often recruited to the imperial cause as a result of the failures of government in the British Isles. These involuntary participants bore the brunt of conquest in faraway continents – death by drowning in ships that never arrived, death at the hands of indigenous peoples who refused to submit, death in foreign battles for which they bore no responsibility, death by cholera and yellow fever, the two great plagues of empire.

Many of these settlers and colonists had been forced out of Scotland, while some had been driven from Ireland, escaping from centuries of continuing oppression and periodic famine. Convicts and political prisoners were sent off to far-off gulags for minor infringements of draconian laws. Soldiers and sailors were press-ganged from the ranks of the unemployed.

Then tragically, and almost overnight, many of the formerly oppressed became themselves, in the colonies, the imperial oppressors. White settlers, in the Americas, in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, Rhodesia and Kenya, simply took over land that was not theirs, often slaughtering, and even purposefully exterminating, the local indigenous population as if they were vermin.

The empire was not established, as some of the old histories liked to suggest, in virgin territory. Far from it. In some places that the British seized, they encountered resistance from local people who had lived there for centuries or, in some cases, since time began. In other regions, notably at the end of the 18th century, lands were wrenched out of the hands of other competing colonial powers that had already begun their self-imposed task of settlement. The British, as a result, were often involved in a three-sided contest. Battles for imperial survival had to be fought both with the native inhabitants and with already existing settlers – usually of French or Dutch origin.

None of this has been, during the 60-year post-colonial period since 1947, the generally accepted view of the empire in Britain. The British understandably try to forget that their empire was the fruit of military conquest and of brutal wars involving physical and cultural extermination.

A self-satisfied and largely hegemonic belief survives in Britain that the empire was an imaginative, civilising enterprise, reluctantly undertaken, that brought the benefits of modern society to backward peoples. Indeed it is often suggested that the British empire was something of a model experience, unlike that of the French, the Dutch, the Germans, the Spaniards, the Portuguese – or, of course, the Americans. There is a widespread opinion that the British empire was obtained and maintained with a minimum degree of force and with maximum co-operation from a grateful local population.

This benign, biscuit-tin view of the past is not an understanding of their history that young people in the territories that once made up the empire would now recognise. A myriad revisionist historians have been at work in each individual country producing fresh evidence to suggest that the colonial experience – for those who actually "experienced" it – was just as horrific as the opponents of empire had always maintained that it was, perhaps more so. New generations have been recovering tales of rebellion, repression and resistance that make nonsense of the accepted imperial version of what went on. Focusing on resistance has been a way of challenging not just the traditional, self-satisfied view of empire, but also the customary depiction of the colonised as victims, lacking in agency or political will.

The theme of repression has often been underplayed in traditional accounts. A few particular instances are customarily highlighted – the slaughter after the Indian mutiny in 1857, the massacre at Amritsar in 1919, the crushing of the Jamaican rebellion in 1867. These have been unavoidable tales. Yet the sheer scale and continuity of imperial repression over the years has never been properly laid out and documented.

No colony in their empire gave the British more trouble than the island of Ireland. No subject people proved more rebellious than the Irish. From misty start to unending finish, Irish revolt against colonial rule has been the leitmotif that runs through the entire history of empire, causing problems in Ireland, in England itself, and in the most distant parts of the British globe. The British affected to ignore or forget the Irish dimension to their empire, yet the Irish were always present within it, and wherever they landed and established themselves, they never forgot where they had come from.

The British often perceived the Irish as "savages", and they used Ireland as an experimental laboratory for the other parts of their overseas empire, as a place to ship out settlers from, as well as a territory to practise techniques of repression and control. Entire armies were recruited in Ireland, and officers learned their trade in its peat bogs and among its burning cottages. Some of the great names of British military history – from Wellington and Wolseley to Kitchener and Montgomery – were indelibly associated with Ireland. The particular tradition of armed policing, first patented in Ireland in the 1820s, became the established pattern until the empire's final collapse.

For much of its early history, the British ruled their empire through terror. The colonies were run as a military dictatorship, often under martial law, and the majority of colonial governors were military officers. "Special" courts and courts martial were set up to deal with dissidents, and handed out rough and speedy injustice. Normal judicial procedures were replaced by rule through terror; resistance was crushed, rebellion suffocated. No historical or legal work deals with martial law. It means the absence of law, other than that decreed by a military governor.

Many early campaigns in India in the 18th century were characterised by sepoy disaffection. Britain's harsh treatment of sepoy mutineers at Manjee in 1764, with the order that they should be "shot from guns", was a terrible warning to others not to step out of line. Mutiny, as the British discovered a century later in 1857, was a formidable weapon of resistance at the disposal of the soldiers they had trained. Crushing it through "cannonading", standing the condemned prisoner with his shoulders placed against the muzzle of a cannon, was essential to the maintenance of imperial control. This simple threat helped to keep the sepoys in line throughout most of imperial history.

To defend its empire, to construct its rudimentary systems of communication and transport, and to man its plantation economies, the British used forced labour on a gigantic scale. From the middle of the 18th century until 1834, the use of non-indigenous black slave labour originally shipped from Africa was the rule. Indigenous manpower in many imperial states was also subjected to slave conditions, dragooned into the imperial armies, or forcibly recruited into road gangs – building the primitive communication networks that facilitated the speedy repression of rebellion. When black slavery was abolished in the 1830s, the thirst for labour by the rapacious landowners of empire brought a new type of slavery into existence, dragging workers from India and China to be employed in distant parts of the world, a phenomenon that soon brought its own contradictions and conflicts.

As with other great imperial constructs, the British empire involved vast movements of peoples: armies were switched from one part of the world to another; settlers changed continents and hemispheres; prisoners were sent from country to country; indigenous inhabitants were corralled, driven away into oblivion, or simply rubbed out.

There was nothing historically special about the British empire. Virtually all European countries with sea coasts and navies had embarked on programmes of expansion in the 16th century, trading, fighting and settling in distant parts of the globe. Sometimes, having made some corner of the map their own, they would exchange it for another piece "owned" by another power, and often these exchanges would occur as the byproduct of dynastic marriages. The Spanish and the Portuguese and the Dutch had empires; so too did the French and the Italians, and the Germans and the Belgians. World empire, in the sense of a far-flung operation far from home, was a European development that changed the world over four centuries.

In the British case, wherever they sought to plant their flag, they were met with opposition. In almost every colony they had to fight their way ashore. While they could sometimes count on a handful of friends and allies, they never arrived as welcome guests. The expansion of empire was conducted as a military operation. The initial opposition continued off and on, and in varying forms, in almost every colonial territory until independence. To retain control, the British were obliged to establish systems of oppression on a global scale, ranging from the sophisticated to the brutal. These in turn were to create new outbreaks of revolt.

Over two centuries, this resistance took many forms and had many leaders. Sometimes kings and nobles led the revolts, sometimes priests or slaves. Some have famous names and biographies, others have disappeared almost without trace. Many died violent deaths. Few of them have even a walk-on part in traditional accounts of empire. Many of these forgotten peoples deserve to be resurrected and given the attention they deserve.

The rebellions and resistance of the subject peoples of empire were so extensive that we may eventually come to consider that Britain's imperial experience bears comparison with the exploits of Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun rather than with those of Alexander the Great. The rulers of the empire may one day be perceived to rank with the dictators of the 20th century as the authors of crimes against humanity.

The drive towards the annihilation of dissidents and peoples in 20th-century Europe certainly had precedents in the 19th-century imperial operations in the colonial world, where the elimination of "inferior" peoples was seen by some to be historically inevitable, and where the experience helped in the construction of the racist ideologies that arose subsequently in Europe. Later technologies merely enlarged the scale of what had gone before. As Cameron remarked this month, Britannia did not rule the waves with armbands on.



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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by jackspratt » April 29, 2023, 8:35 pm

Udon Map wrote:
April 29, 2023, 8:06 pm
I know little of British colonialism and its policies, but LMY's post got me curious, so I started browsing around the internet. I thought that this might make an interesting topic for discussion. Here's a column that appeared in The Guardian in 2011 written by controversial writer and admitted KGB agent Richard Gott.
Yep - although the polemic is a bit short on recognising that, in many cases, there were some benefits eventually for the locals.

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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by joudon » April 29, 2023, 8:52 pm

Payment by UK Government to pay for all slaves to be freed in our controlled areas finally ended in 2014
The Royal Navy lost countless ships and thousands of men implementing the eradication of the slave trade from Africa.

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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by tamada » April 29, 2023, 9:18 pm

jackspratt wrote:
April 29, 2023, 8:35 pm
Udon Map wrote:
April 29, 2023, 8:06 pm
I know little of British colonialism and its policies, but LMY's post got me curious, so I started browsing around the internet. I thought that this might make an interesting topic for discussion. Here's a column that appeared in The Guardian in 2011 written by controversial writer and admitted KGB agent Richard Gott.
Yep - although the polemic is a bit short on recognising that, in many cases, there were some benefits eventually for the locals.
Like the odd Royal visit and, if not specifically mentioned, being alluded to in the Queen's Christmas messages.

The revelations of Windrush nothwithstanding, a trenchant observation made in the third paragraph of the cited article suggests that even with the mantle of being from a Commonwealth nation, this didn't ordinarily afford the same benefits to the 'rich vermillion'-hued immigrant as those that the native-born British Islander were entitled to.
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » April 30, 2023, 9:15 am

The article is similar to the documentaries and commentaries on RT (Russia Television) in that most of what they say is true, but they leave out a lot that gives a skewed view of the subject.

One point to remember is that any Imperialist is going to feel he is superior to the subjected people otherwise there would be no point in building an Empire. This is true of ancient Egypt, Rome, Angkor, the western Empires, the Ottomans, China and Japan. When Arthur MacArthur (father of Douglas) defeated the Filipino independence movement at the end of the 19th century and brought the Philippines under U.S. colonial rule, he did not do so to make Filipinos equal. In fact, he referred to them as n-----s. Filipinos like to say they spent 100 years under the Catholic Church and 100 years under Hollywood. Furthermore any domination of another people is going to be messy as the the tribes of Mexico and the U.S. found out when they were defeated by the Comanches.

Empires are founded for various reasons although the most common one is economic. Britain wanted Egypt and the Sudan under their sway for strategic reasons, namely to control traffic on the Suez Canal. They negotiated a Treaty with France in 1902 (1904?) to keep Isaan as part of Thailand and maintain distance between the British Empire in Burma from the French Empire in Laos.

In addition the British would bring in people from their other colonies to run the bureaucracy in the colonial territory. For instance, Indians in Burma, and Indians and Chinese in Malaya were attracted to move and make money and share power. The French did the same in Laos and Cambodia by bringing in Vietnamese. Although some Mons, Burmese, Shans (Tai people) and Karens did join the Imperial bureaucracy, the majority of these people remined peasants. The Siamese followed the British model in Malaya in the late 19th century by bringing in Chinese to run businesses, allowing the majority Thais to remain on the farms. They sent Governors, again on the Malaya model to spread central Thai rule and customs (especially Buddhist practises) to independent states in Chiang Mai, Lampang, Nan and so on. By the 1920s these independent and semi-independent states were firmly under central Thai rule. China has followed the same pattern in Tibet so that the Han might outnumber the Tibetans. Currently, China seems to be encouraging mainland migration to Hong Kong.

More to come later...the dog and wife, in that order require my attention.
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » April 30, 2023, 12:06 pm

Yes, colonial rule was brutal. The British believed that you had to give the natives a good thrashing in the beginning to gain fear and respect for your superior technology and ability. However, the aim was not to continually beat them up because colonies were supposed to pay their own way, and if you are fighting the people all the time, not much trade is going to be going on, and there will be no profits to be made. Law and order is best for trade and this is what the British and other empire builders tried to establish.

Tales of brutality abound in these conquests from the Japanese occupation of parts of Asia, Belgium in the Congo, the Spanish in Peru and Mexico, and the ones cited in the article. The author's view is skewed, however, because he neglects to mention that most land held by native Indian tribes in Canada and the U.S. was temporary. Indian society from coast to coast was built on warfare. Many tribes vanished because they were wiped out by other tribes. Where are the Huron today? Every Indian from east to west coast engaged in brutal forms of torture, which is why an Indian fought to the death. He knew what would happen to him if he was captured alive. In fact, only the Picts and Celts in Scotland could rival the Indians in their forms of torture. This is why Hadrian built his wall to keep the savages out. He was more successful than Obama and Trump in wall building. I forgot to mention Michelin's rubber plantations in Vietnam in the 1920s and 30s. Conditions were so poor, and the Vietnamese were treated like slaves leading to resistance against the French, and the rise of the Vietnamese Communist Party. The upshot is the Empires had to appear invincible. When the Japanese threw the British out of Malaya, Burma and Hong Kong during the Second World War, it demonstrated that Imperial power was a myth. The colonial people watched and learned their lessons well, and soon the British, French and Dutch Imperialists (Japanese too) in Asia were to be distant memories.
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Doodoo » April 30, 2023, 1:14 pm

Where are the Huron tribe members today?
They were not wiped out as you mentioned
Originally hailing from the St. Lawrence Valley in Quebec, Canada, the Huron Indian tribes of today are scattered across the Midwest portion of the United States and Canada. Many Native Americans of the Huron tribe chose to relocate to Ohio and Michigan after being pushed out by rival Indian nations. Still others were forced to relocate to areas like Kansas and Oklahoma as part of the United States government's Indian removal initiative in the 19th century.

https://www.unitedstatesnow.org/who-are ... ndians.htm

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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » April 30, 2023, 4:53 pm

Doodoo wrote:
April 30, 2023, 1:14 pm
Where are the Huron tribe members today?
They were not wiped out as you mentioned
Originally hailing from the St. Lawrence Valley in Quebec, Canada, the Huron Indian tribes of today are scattered across the Midwest portion of the United States and Canada. Many Native Americans of the Huron tribe chose to relocate to Ohio and Michigan after being pushed out by rival Indian nations. Still others were forced to relocate to areas like Kansas and Oklahoma as part of the United States government's Indian removal initiative in the 19th century.

https://www.unitedstatesnow.org/who-are ... ndians.htm
To add to your point about the movement of tribes, the Sioux migrated from Minnesota to South Dakota as they learnt to use the horse as a war weapon. They pushed out the Crow who moved to Montana and Alberta. Thanks for the information about the Huron that reinforces the point that these were not peace loving tribes. I asked the question about the whereabouts of the Huron, I did not state that they were all wiped out although their tribal rivals in what is now Ontario and Quebec certainly helped force them to leave their so-called homelands.
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » April 30, 2023, 5:46 pm

So let's look at some of the benefits of imperial rule for the people living in the colonies. Usually, at least under the British, it meant improved communications, health, education, the end of wars with neighbours and a higher living standard especially for those living in urban areas. Residents of the Dominions (Canada, Australia and New Zealand) were happy to be a part of what they felt was the most powerful Empire in the world. It is true that many colonised people felt that pride too. The British did not have enough home grown bureaucrats to run the Empire; therefore, they had to educate and train citizens of the colonies, and bring in others, usually Chinese and Indians to man the bureaucracies whether it was in Africa, Asia or the West Indies. This increased opportunities for the people to improve their position in society. However, it could also create problems. For example, the Burmese resented the fact that the Chinese and Indians dominated business and banking in their country, and gave rise to anti-British movements. Even in Siam until recently, it was almost impossible for country people to improve their lives as the Chinese dominated life and resources in urban centres. In politics, you can see that Sino-Chinese dominate and it is difficult to find any 100% Thais in Parliament. This is a result of bringing Chinese into the country in the late 19th century to run business.

Thus, there was good and bad under Imperial rule. However, there is little doubt that self-rule is superior to colonial rule.
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Doodoo » April 30, 2023, 6:12 pm

"Many tribes vanished because they were wiped out by other tribes. Where are the Huron today? "

This says that there were wiped out

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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » April 30, 2023, 8:06 pm

Doodoo wrote:
April 30, 2023, 6:12 pm
"Many tribes vanished because they were wiped out by other tribes. Where are the Huron today? "

This says that there were wiped out
Yes, it seems to strongly suggest that. You are very helpful.

An interesting note is that all the Chiefs in Quebec have French first names (I don't know if Sioui is a French surname or not):

• Grand Chief Rémy Vincent
• Family Chefs Dave Laveau, Denis Bastien, Carlo Gros-Louis, René W. Picard, Stéphane Picard, Daniel Sioui, William Romain, Jean-Mathieu Sioui

https://www.quebec.ca/en/government/que ... ve%20there.
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by tamada » April 30, 2023, 8:29 pm

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:
April 30, 2023, 8:06 pm
Doodoo wrote:
April 30, 2023, 6:12 pm
"Many tribes vanished because they were wiped out by other tribes. Where are the Huron today? "

This says that there were wiped out
Yes, it seems to strongly suggest that. You are very helpful.

An interesting note is that all the Chiefs in Quebec have French first names (I don't know if Sioui is a French surname or not):

• Grand Chief Rémy Vincent
• Family Chefs Dave Laveau, Denis Bastien, Carlo Gros-Louis, René W. Picard, Stéphane Picard, Daniel Sioui, William Romain, Jean-Mathieu Sioui

https://www.quebec.ca/en/government/que ... ve%20there.
Little imperialism? Clinging to French language and lore through the Quebecois?

I thought it interesting when you said earlier that Asian nations saw the "myth" of empire destroyed when the Japanese overran the British in WWII. This would have been reinforced when in turn, the Japanese empire was handed it's ass by the new "empire" on the block, team USA. They arguably lost credibility with the losses in Vietnam and subsequently Laos and Cambodia falling into civil strife. Maybe not so much trying to forge a new empire as fighting the fabled communist "domino effect" after their enduring impasse with China in Korea from the 50's.

In the Economist, I'm reading an opinion that China may test American-led global resolve against their Taiwan predations by swatting sleepy little Guam first.

Keeping on topic of the British empire, subsequent recent Tory governments have been talking about re-establishing a global Naval presence and battle groups to be sent far and wide, especially against the threat of Chinese expansionism. British sea power, military and commercial, was arguably key to the longevity of that Empire. Again, quickly undone by the Japanese Imperial fleet and, with both of Britain's multi-billion pound carriers in need of repair, probably a non-starter anyway.
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Doodoo » April 30, 2023, 9:27 pm

"the Japanese empire was handed it's ass by the new "empire" on the block, team USA."

Not just the Americans. The Brits played a major part in the defeat of the Japanese along with the Canadians and the New Zealanders.

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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Whistler » April 30, 2023, 10:16 pm

Doodoo wrote:
April 30, 2023, 9:27 pm
"the Japanese empire was handed it's ass by the new "empire" on the block, team USA."

Not just the Americans. The Brits played a major part in the defeat of the Japanese along with the Canadians and the New Zealanders.
Perhaps you can review your knowledge of the history of WWII.

The first defeat of the Japanese army in the war was in New Guinea. There were no Canadians or Kiwis in that theatre of war.

The major defeat on the sea was the battle of the Coral Sea off the coast of Queensland. This was the Australian navy in support of the US navy where the Japanese were flattened and clobered half their carrier fleet.

More importantly 2.5 million Indians fought against the axis powers, they were the fourth biggest contrubutor to the allied forces

Canada Nope. NZ nope.

Both nations punched above their weight, but the Japs were stopped by the Australian Army and the US Navy after sweeping all before them up until mid 1942.
Last edited by Whistler on April 30, 2023, 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Doodoo » April 30, 2023, 10:57 pm

Algonquin arrived in Canada in February 1945 for a tropicalization refit at Halifax, Nova Scotia. Work was complete by August when she departed to join the British Pacific Fleet
British Pacific Fleet
The Fleet consisted of 6 fleet carriers, 4 light carriers, 2 aircraft maintenance carriers and 9 escort carriers, with a total of more than 750 aircraft, 4 battleships, 11 cruisers, 35 destroyers, 14 frigates, 44 smaller warships, 31 submarines, and 54 large vessels in the fleet train
In 1944, the ship was transferred to the Pacific once again and was at Sydney, Australia when Japan surrendered. Prince Robert was ordered to Hong Kong to repatriate Canadian prisoners of war and to assist in control of the island. The ship returned to Canada on 20 October 1945 and was paid off on 10 December and transferred to War Assets Corporation for disposal.
NEW ZEALAND
Arbutus departed the United Kingdom for New Zealand on 1 August 1944, but ran aground off Viwa Island. She suffered damage to her rudder, propeller and a 25 foot length of her hull. HMNZS Aroha towed Arbutus to Auckland for repairs, which were not complete until April 1945. In May, Arbutus was offered for service in the British Pacific Fleet and sent to Sydney for fitting out as a radio and radar maintenance ship. She joined the fleet train in Japanese waters on 28 July and serviced at least forty ships of Task Force 37. Arbutus was then assigned to escorting supply ships and was present in Hong Kong for the Japanese Surrender.

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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Udon Map » April 30, 2023, 11:01 pm

Whistler wrote:
April 30, 2023, 10:16 pm
Both nations punched above their weight, but the Japs were stopped by the Australian Army and the US Navy after sweeping all before them up until mid 1942.
Without minimizing the roles of other Allies towards the end of the Pacific theater in World War 2, let's not forget the role that the atomic bomb likely played in persuading the Japanese to reconsider their negative attitude.

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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Whistler » April 30, 2023, 11:08 pm

Doodoo wrote:
April 30, 2023, 10:57 pm
Algonquin arrived in Canada in February 1945 for a tropicalization refit at Halifax, Nova Scotia. Work was complete by August when she departed to join the British Pacific Fleet
British Pacific Fleet
The Fleet consisted of 6 fleet carriers, 4 light carriers, 2 aircraft maintenance carriers and 9 escort carriers, with a total of more than 750 aircraft, 4 battleships, 11 cruisers, 35 destroyers, 14 frigates, 44 smaller warships, 31 submarines, and 54 large vessels in the fleet train
In 1944, the ship was transferred to the Pacific once again and was at Sydney, Australia when Japan surrendered. Prince Robert was ordered to Hong Kong to repatriate Canadian prisoners of war and to assist in control of the island. The ship returned to Canada on 20 October 1945 and was paid off on 10 December and transferred to War Assets Corporation for disposal.
NEW ZEALAND
Arbutus departed the United Kingdom for New Zealand on 1 August 1944, but ran aground off Viwa Island. She suffered damage to her rudder, propeller and a 25 foot length of her hull. HMNZS Aroha towed Arbutus to Auckland for repairs, which were not complete until April 1945. In May, Arbutus was offered for service in the British Pacific Fleet and sent to Sydney for fitting out as a radio and radar maintenance ship. She joined the fleet train in Japanese waters on 28 July and serviced at least forty ships of Task Force 37. Arbutus was then assigned to escorting supply ships and was present in Hong Kong for the Japanese Surrender.
You have just confirmed NZ and Canada were tiny actors in the Pacific war. Algonquin was one ship in a fleet of over 200 ships at the end of the war, Arbutus never saw any wartime action.

Japan was defeated by American, British, Australian, Indian, Russian and Chinese armies and some brave Burmese, Malay and Phillipinoes, plus others. Not Canadian and not Kiwies
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Doodoo » April 30, 2023, 11:24 pm

They are on the list of ships involved
Your thinking is that if someone was a Cook he wasn't a part of it.
Or like someone that sat on the bench of a game he wasn't on the players list

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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by Potamoi » April 30, 2023, 11:31 pm

Whistler wrote:
April 30, 2023, 10:16 pm
Doodoo wrote:
April 30, 2023, 9:27 pm
"the Japanese empire was handed it's ass by the new "empire" on the block, team USA."

Not just the Americans. The Brits played a major part in the defeat of the Japanese along with the Canadians and the New Zealanders.
Perhaps you can review your knowledge of the history of WWII.

The first defeat of the Japanese army in the war was in New Guinea. There were no Canadians or Kiwis in that theatre of war.

The major defeat on the sea was the battle of the Coral Sea off the coast of Queensland. This was the Australian navy in support of the US navy where the Japanese were flattened and lost half their carrier fleet.

Canada Nope. NZ nope.

Both nations punched above their weight, but the Japs were stopped by the Australian Army and the US Navy after sweeping all before them up until mid 1942.
From what I remember reading, while most of the Canadian forces were in the European and North African theatres, something like 25,000 Canadians volunteered in the US Armed Forced just after Pearl Harbour, something a lesser number of Americans were already doing in the Royal Canadian forces in the late 30's. The US and Canada shared defensive positions on the West coast of North America including many Canadian squads assigned to defend Alaska.

I think there was some army special ops team assembled to head off to the Pacific theatre as well just prior to the Japanese surrender.

So I think it is fair to say some Canadians were involved but likely in US uniforms, just not that many. There were a number of New Zealanders serving with the RAF as well so I suppose they too were a part of the defeat of Japan. Not a large contributor but as a nation they really poured a large percent of their resources and people to the larger WWII effort in general. Hats off in any event to all involved in the effort really.
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Re: British Colonialism and Its Policies

Post by tamada » May 1, 2023, 12:07 am

I think we're broadly agreed that WWII was undisputably a team effort. I read recently that the last Gurkha soldier to have been awarded the VC has sadly passed. They definately 'punched above their weight' but it took a lot of effort in the post-war years to recognize their well-earned place in British society outside of gongs for valor.

Is it right for Presidents, Prime Ministers and Potentates to suggest that their nation's former colonial glories and what drove them are things to be proud of, hold dear and be the foundation for an assured bright future? Or is it just nationalistic jingoism and 'rally round the flag' and 'stiff upper lip' nonsense?
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