Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[AlexO]

So there was no attack, no automatic fire or even a single shot fired, no explosives used, no casualties, no destruction of medical facilities.
In other words, your post about an IDF "attack" was your usual crock of Poo.
Thanks for clearing that up.

[tamada]

The war isn't nearly over so why demand answers to such irrelevant things now? Hamas are still firing rockets at Israel so there's still a network of tunnels where they're building the damn things and delivering them to launch sites.

If the Palestinians want safety, move to the bloody desert and AWAY from the habitation that hides the terrorists. I am sure Guterres and fellow appeasers can manage the resupply logistics a lot easier and far more safely in the wilderness rather than gurning about the impossibility of delivering relief through bombed out streets to sham hospitals and schools.

[Udon Map]

Perhaps this will help clarify things for some, perhaps not.

https://www.newsbreak.com/news/32211012 ... nt-context

[jackspratt]

If the Palestinians want safety, move to the bloody desert and AWAY from the habitation that hides the terrorists.

What a brilliant suggestion - all they need is a modern day Muslim Moses, and they can spend 40 years out there.

Which would suit the radical Israelis, who are just a keen to see the end of the Palestinians as Hamas is to see the end of the Israelis.

[jackspratt]

So there was no attack, no automatic fire or even a single shot fired, no explosives used, no casualties, no destruction of medical facilities.
In other words, your post about an IDF "attack" was your usual crock of Poo.
Thanks for clearing that up.

And no command centre.

Happy to help.

[Udon Map]

So there was no attack, no automatic fire or even a single shot fired, no explosives used, no casualties, no destruction of medical facilities.
In other words, your post about an IDF "attack" was your usual crock of Poo.
Thanks for clearing that up.

And no command centre.

So, let's assume that there was no command center. How about if Hamas just uses hospitals as storage for weapons and ammunition, and as launching sites for missiles?

[Doodoo]

Or another reason that Hospitals are used is providing the treatment of people who are ill or injured , the reason that they are built
Not backed up by videos, news casts, just my own background when going to hospitals

[AlexO]

So there was no attack, no automatic fire or even a single shot fired, no explosives used, no casualties, no destruction of medical facilities.
In other words, your post about an IDF "attack" was your usual crock of Poo.
Thanks for clearing that up.

And no command centre.

So, let's assume that there was no command center. How about if Hamas just uses hospitals as storage for weapons and ammunition, and as launching sites for missiles?

Or that the 'heroic Hamas terrorists' had dropped everything and run and hid amongst the civilian population in the hospital. There's reasons why terrorists don't wear uniforms and it's not because of lack of funds.

[jackspratt]

So, let's assume that there was no command center. How about if Hamas just uses hospitals as storage for weapons and ammunition, and as launching sites for missiles?

It's a matter of degree, as I see it.

Weapons and ammunition are a far cry from a command centre and missile launching sites.

Is there any evidence of the launching sites - given the command centre question seems to have become settled in the absence of any evidence?

[Udon Map]

So, let's assume that there was no command center. How about if Hamas just uses hospitals as storage for weapons and ammunition, and as launching sites for missiles?

Weapons and ammunition are a far cry from a command centre and missile launching sites.

So is it OK for Hamas to store weapons and ammunition in or under hospitals and use them as launching sites? How about using hospitals as places for torturing Palestinians as described by AI?

Is there any evidence of the launching sites - given the command centre question seems to have become settled in the absence of any evidence?

Well, if you don't accept the videos from IDF, no. And since there isn't any public access, we only have the IDF videos and the Hamas denials. Take your pick.

[Udon Map]

Or another reason that Hospitals are used is providing the treatment of people who are ill or injured , the reason that they are built

Yes, that's the point. That's exactly why 1) they are generally exempt from attack in military operations, and 2) Hamas uses them. But you do also have the reports from Amnesty International about hospitals being used for torturing and murdering Palestinians. not generally part of reasons that they are built, as you cited.

[jackspratt]

So, let's assume that there was no command center. How about if Hamas just uses hospitals as storage for weapons and ammunition, and as launching sites for missiles?

Weapons and ammunition are a far cry from a command centre and missile launching sites.

So is it OK for Hamas to store weapons and ammunition in or under hospitals and use them as launching sites?

Stop making things up, UM - I didn't say that.

The "matter of degree" refers to the amount of force used by the IDF.

How about using hospitals as places for torturing Palestinians as described by AI?

I have already responded to that to an earlier post from tamada.

Is there any evidence of the launching sites - given the command centre question seems to have become settled in the absence of any evidence?

Well, if you don't accept the videos from IDF, no. And since there isn't any public access, we only have the IDF videos and the Hamas denials. Take your pick.

Do you have a link to evidence of hospitals being used as rocket launching sites? The first page of google doesn't.

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow ... ell=1#ip=1

[Udon Map]

The "matter of degree" refers to the amount of force used by the IDF.

That's the problem. How do you stop/eliminate Hamas without using "excessive" force? I'd ask the same question about the Viet Cong, or any irregular group of fighters that embeds itself in the civilian population. (We can leave for another time a conversation about whether getting rid of or defeating the Viet Cong was a goal that benefitted the country or population.)

[Udon Map]

Do you have a link to evidence of hospitals being used as rocket launching sites? The first page of google doesn't.

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow ... ell=1#ip=1

IMO, you're picking at nits. Does it really matter whether Hamas is using hospitals as missile launching sites or as weapons storage facilities and torture sites?

[jackspratt]

So, despite you saying so, there is no evidence (apparently) that hospitals are being used as rocket launching sites, just like Al-Sharif is not a command centre.

That's a pretty bloody big nit - all part of the "alternative facts" universe we live in, I guess.

[Udon Map]

So, despite you saying so, there is no evidence (apparently) that hospitals are being used as rocket launching sites, just like Al-Sharif is not a command centre.

That's a pretty bloody big nit - all part of the "alternative facts" universe we live in, I guess.

I admire your confidence in, and apparent support of, Hamas, while most of the rest of the world agrees that it's a terrorist organization committed to the destruction of Israel and the elimination of all Jews. Oh, wait a minute, -- Hamas' charter, itself, proudly proclaims that.

[Khun Paul]

I really do smile at the sheer stypidity of some posters who although have NEVER VISITED Gaza or even often never bisited Israel, makeidiotic comments about the situation . No matter who you support even if you support a recognised group who by their own words seek to eliminae the other side AROUND THE WORLD , it does no good to be blinkered .
oN this occasion this fracas was started by the undescriminate firing of missiles designed to kill and maim and also by physical incursion capture Israelis ( although some were not ), by HAMAS, with almost zero provocation ( althou7gh constant missiles etc are often being fired and the obvious reaction ) ./
If one reads international rep[orts from many sources including many from the arab world GAZa was like a state withon a state policed with severe retribution against those who did not like the way it was governed and made the citizens of GAZA live in fear as they are generally used as a shield by any mean by HAMAS , who are NOT representative of the Palestinian people despite the rhetoric spouted by many even on here.
Naturally people react when the percieved uderdog is attacked convieniently forgetting the underdog started it and run a quasi military encl;ave inside a reasonably peacefulcountry called Palestine, as well as forgetting Jews and ARabs have been living together for documented over 4000 years. NOW TRY TO put your liberal western ideas to those people whose ancestors were alive long before many countries existed`.

[jackspratt]

The old GW Bush fallacy, with a straw man thrown in.

You seem to mistake my lack of full throated support for Israel (and the IDF) as support for Hamas.

You are wrong.

But please feel free to show where on this thread, or others, I have supported Hamas. In fact, I have explicitly done the opposite.

EDIT: To clarify, this post was in response to UM's post 1 above, and was posted well before KP's mod-delayed thoughts directly above.

[AlexO]

While I am sure most people recognise that the Hamas actions were terrorist, it appears to me that a lot more people are now asking "why"?

I agree, in two respects. I think that people are asking both 1) what drove them to violence, and 2) why choose violence when it was sure to provoke a strong and deadly response from Israel.

Pratty
Your post 12 October 2023
As I commented earlier in this thread, both your question are probably answered by reference to the likely Palestinian (and by extension, Hamas) dissatisfaction with the status quo up till a few days ago.

The "why"I refer to is why Hamas has taken this particularly violent action, given the 2 likely outcomes you refer to.

Different people will draw different conclusions.

You have never hidden your support for the action by the Palestinians (and by extension Hamas). Stop trying to convince yourself/or others that your not the worst kind of anti-Jew racist trying to hide behind weasel words.

[jackspratt]

Your contemptible, but entirely predictable post barely deserves a response Alex - but I'll indulge you one last time.

Firstly, Jews are not a race, as has been pointed out to you several times before, but it seems you are incapable of understanding that. Just as Muslims, or Christians, are not a race.

Should I start referring to you as "the worst kind of anti-Palestinian racist"?

Palestinians have justifiable aspirations to a homeland in the Levant, which I certainly support. Hamas (and other organisations) are the extreme and violent expression of those aspirations, and I have never supported their actions, including the recent terrorist raids into Israel, nor their suppression of the vast majority of the Gazan population.

If what I write offends you, that is just too bad. You would do well to take a more balanced view of what has been occurring in the West Bank and Gaza for many years now, and get over your borderline unhinged obsession with me.

Cheers