Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[rick]

Lets not forget the West Bank. Yet another botched IDF retaliation kills 7 civilians.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006126

Of course, IDF says they were terrorists. Strange that some of them had permits to work in israel. No weapons found, just drinking a early morning coffee around a fire. 492 palestinians were killed last year in the west bank - 300 since the Gaza attack. Not surprising that they would like to see the end of Israel. Support for Hamas is growing in the West Bank, and the IDF and jewish settlers are doing a sterling job as recruiting agents for them.

[Udon Map]

My understanding is that hospitals are afforded special protections under various conventions. So if you are going to attack one, you need to be pretty sure you have good justification to do so.

In this case, the non-existent "Command Centre" obviously failed that test.

As I said above, even assuming that you are correct, does it really matter whether the tunnels under hospitals were command centers, or Hamas used them for weapons storage facilities, conference centers, terrorist sleeping quarters, etc.?

As far as hospitals still functioning in Northern Gaza - no.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/fu ... =105867484

It appears that you're right.

So what can be done, in your opinion, when Hamas continues to launch rockets against Israel (indiscriminately towards cities/civilian population centers) every day, and locate its tunnels in the midst of civilian population and under hospitals? One big difference, of course, is that Israeli civilian casualties have been remarkably low, in contrast to Palestinian civilian casualties. But whose fault is that? Hamas has been co-opting foreign aid (in money and materials) to build the tunnels rather than bomb shelters for its citizens. In Israel, most people can get to a bomb shelter within a couple of minutes. It's complicated, true. But while the world is condemning Israel's action to the extent that it has resulted in high Palestinian casualties, where's the outcry about Hamas' daily rocket attacks on Israel, which have been going on for years? Where's the outcry about Hamas raping Israeli girls and women before killing them in the October attack? What would you do in Israel's position?

[Udon Map]

Lets not forget the West Bank. Yet another botched IDF retaliation kills 7 civilians.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006126

The Palestinian paramedics say that they weren't terrorists. But terrorists blend into the civilian population, that's part of what makes terrorism successful. And the fact that they had permits to be in Israel means nothing.

Attacks have also been carried out by Palestinians inside Israel, including one earlier this week that killed one woman and injured 17 other people.

I'm not saying that the Palestinian paramedics are lying, but terrorists don't carry weapons 24×7. The fact that they didn't have any weapons on them at the time proves nothing. Maybe they weren't, in fact, terrorists. Maybe they were. We don't know. What we do know is that Palestinian terrorists who otherwise appear to be civilians have repeatedly targeted civilians inside Israel.

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Jack.. What would you do to combat internal terrorism? How is Israel supposed to stop it when you can't tell who the terrorists are until they strike?

[Whistler]

100% agree with Udon. This is a dirty water both sides, Israel must destroy Hamas, like any such action it cannot be totally without some collateral damage, but Hamas brought this on, now they are quite right being kicked from one side to the other.

[jackspratt]

A new PM, and change of government would be a good start. An internal security minister who is a convicted terrorist supporter, for god's sake!

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejects US calls for Palestinian state after Gaza war

....Mr Netanyahu, who leads a far-right government opposed to Palestinian statehood, repeated his longstanding opposition to a two-state solution. He said a Palestinian state would become a launching pad for attacks on Israel....
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-19/ ... /103367348

In my view, it is a pipe dream to believe HAMAS can be "totally" destroyed. While the attitude exhibited above continues to exist, so will HAMAS and its regional supporters. And the indiscriminate slaughter that is going on in Gaza, together with the actions in the West Bank highlighted above by Rick, will only compound the issue.

To expect people to live in a virtual open air prison on one hand, and an area that is being constantly encroached upon by illegal "settlers" on the other hand, is a recipe for ongoing conflict.

It must be within the wit of an advanced country such as Israel, with all the technology at its disposal, and the external support it receives, to be far more precise in trying to root out Hamas, without resorting to constant artillery and air attacks which have destroyed large sections of Gaza.

As for "collateral damage" - 24,000+ deaths, mainly women and children. These are people, not just statistics. And the vast majority of them are not HAMAS.

[Udon Map]

In my view, it is a pipe dream to believe HAMAS can be "totally" destroyed.

You may well be right. Similarly, it is a pipe dream to think that Hamas will ever consider living in a mutually respectful peace with Jews.

[jackspratt]

Yes, but by lifting up the aspirations and opportunities for the bulk of the Palestinian population, you more than likely diminish their support for HAMAS, and therefore HAMAS itself.

One thing is patently obvious, and tragically so recently - the status quo has not worked, and will not work in the future.

[rick]

What would i do to combat inyernal terrorism? Well not use airstrikes for a start on every suspicious group of men. It.is not a case that hround forces couldn't get there, it is all under IDF control.
Anyway, Netanyahu has now publicly stated that there will be no 2 state solution. All IDF and settler activity had one aim - make living in Palestine for.Arabs dangerous and uneconomic. In other words, ethnic cleansing as a long game.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

What would i do to combat inyernal terrorism? Well not use airstrikes for a start on every suspicious group of men. It.is not a case that hround forces couldn't get there, it is all under IDF control.
Anyway, Netanyahu has now publicly stated that there will be no 2 state solution. All IDF and settler activity had one aim - make living in Palestine for.Arabs dangerous and uneconomic. In other words, ethnic cleansing as a long game.

It is my understanding that the political leaders of Palestine have said that from Day One. Hamas has never stated they are in favour of a two-state solution. In other words, the destruction of Israel as a long game is the goal of Arab leaders in Palestine. Am I wrong.

[Udon Map]

Yes, but by lifting up the aspirations and opportunities for the bulk of the Palestinian population, you more than likely diminish their support for HAMAS, and therefore HAMAS itself.

Good idea, except that not supporting Hamas is regularly punished by death, usually in public view in the street.

[Udon Map]

Anyway, Netanyahu has now publicly stated that there will be no 2 state solution.

It is my understanding that the political leaders of Palestine have said that from Day One. Hamas has never stated they are in favour of a two-state solution. In other words, the destruction of Israel as a long game is the goal of Arab leaders in Palestine. Am I wrong.

No, you are correct, as posted earlier:

The Palestinians have been offered a two state solution repeatedly, and, each time, have declined, opting instead for an all-or-nothing approach.

1919: Arabs of Palestine refused to nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.

1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected by the Arabs of Palestine.

1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected by the Arabs of Palestine.

1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected by the Arabs of Palestine.

1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected by the Arabs of Palestine.

1946: Anglo-American Commission proposal, rejected by the Arabs of Palestine.

1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected by the Arab League and the Higher Arab Committee for Palestine/.

1949: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected by the Arab League and the Higher Arab committee for Palestine.

1967: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected by the Arab League and the PLO.

1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt) by the rest of the Arab world, including the PLO.

1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt and Jordan).

1995: Rabin's Contour-for-Peace, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.

2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected by Yasser Arafat, who then initiated the pre-planned second intifada.

2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.

2005: Sharon's peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected by the Hamas takeover in 2007.

2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected by Mahmoud Abbas.

2014: Kerry's Contour-for-Peace, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.

2018: Trump’s “deal of the Century”, rejected in advance by Mahmoud Abbas.

2019: US Conference on Economic Benefit for the Palestinians, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.

2020: PA reiterates rejection of Trump’s “Deal of the Century” before it’s even presented.

2020: Palestinian rejection of the normalization agreement between the UAE and Israel.

2020: Palestinian objections to Serbia and Kosovo moving their embassies from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

[jackspratt]

A meaningless list, without presenting an understanding of the reasons for rejection.

[jackspratt]

It is my understanding that the political leaders of Palestine have said that from Day One. Hamas has never stated they are in favour of a two-state solution. In other words, the destruction of Israel as a long game is the goal of Arab leaders in Palestine. Am I wrong.

To a degree, yes.

HAMAS does not control the West Bank, or the various Palestinian diasporas in other parts of the region, so you can't attribute their extreme views to all Palestinians, or even their political leaders.

[tamada]

A meaningless list, without presenting an understanding of the reasons for rejection.

What are the reasons?

[Udon Map]

A meaningless list, without presenting an understanding of the reasons for rejection.

Nah. If they rejected the proposals a few times, I might agree with you. If they truly wanted peaceful coexistence, they could have negotiated whatever problems they perceived. But EVERY time? 22 times? I simply don't believe that there were substantive (i.e., non-pretextual) reasons for their rejection all 22 times.

[jackspratt]

So you don't understand why they would object to Embassies being moved to East Jerusalem.

OK.

And that's just one.

[jackspratt]

A meaningless list, without presenting an understanding of the reasons for rejection.

What are the reasons?

It's not my list.

[tamada]

A meaningless list, without presenting an understanding of the reasons for rejection.

What are the reasons?

It's not my list.

Oh my goodness! How epically doodooesque of you.

[jackspratt]

So if I put up a list of 5 indicators that all Scots are thick, should I be expected to give reasons if asked?

Or should it just be taken as read?

[tamada]

So you don't understand why they would object to Embassies being moved to East Jerusalem.

OK.

And that's just one.

Since an embassy isn't a synagogue, a mosque or a church, it must be that "stolen land" thing again?