Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[tamada]

From the NYT article.

Israel is also conducting controlled demolitions along the length of Gaza’s 36-mile land border in order to create a “buffer zone.” Legal experts have questioned the legality of these demolitions, noting that it is unlikely that all of the destroyed buildings posed an immediate military threat.

Was it unlikely that the Gazan hospitals, connected as they were by tunnels and harboring Hamas fighters among the doctors, staff, sick and the injured, posed an immediate military threat to the IDF?

[Udon Map]

No response to my second paragraph?

Did you read the Times article?

I don't often respond to every word in a post to which I'm responding, but since you seem to be requesting a response, sure.



Yes, I read the NYTimes article.

Is it the complete destruction of Gaza, and the dire consequences for its civilian population?

I don't know if it's the complete destruction of Gaza. It's unfortunate that Hamas doesn't have the same regard for the Palestinian people that the rest of the world does. And where are the Arab brethren of the Palestinians? They seem to have little interest in getting involved. Hamas rules Gaza with a combination of threats, torture and death.

Iran supports Hamas, but it is not, of course, an Arab country; with a small minority exception, Iranians are not Arabs. What Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah and others have in common is the desired extinction of Jews.

I don't see a way out, a way to put an end to this. Despite the preferences of some, Jews are not going away.

[rick]

Well things not looking so good for Israel. US Republican military aid budget prposal defeated (because it was not the one Democrats had negotiated with them). Several Europen countries have decided to ban weapon sales to Israel; and the claim that the Palestinian UN aid organisation had a numer of Hamas staff cannot be substantiated (channel 4 , UK, investigation). Also qukte a few videos of IDF soldiers boasting of killing civilians; also mass grave found in Northern Gaza, execjted?

[rick]

Also, Saudi Arabia has decided no deal with Israel unless a free Palestinian state created.

[Udon Map]

Well things not looking so good for Israel. US Republican military aid budget prposal defeated (because it was not the one Democrats had negotiated with them).

You sure about that? My understanding was that aid to Israel was linked to the bi-partisan border security bill. Trump is threatening any Republicans who support the bill because he's afraid that it would make the Dems look good (the bill gives Republicans almost everything they said they wanted), and that's why it will be defeated. Trump has demonstrated that he'll do or say anything to win. He's perfectly willing to stop a bi-partisan cooperative effort at moving forward in order to increase his chances of winning reelection.

Several Europen countries have decided to ban weapon sales to Israel

I know that there are lots of calls for this, but which countries have actually stopped their weapons sales to Israel?

the claim that the Palestinian UN aid organisation had a numer of Hamas staff cannot be substantiated (channel 4 , UK, investigation).

The UN has substantiated such claims with regard to nine of its employees aiding Hamas and/or participating in the attack on Israel, and it fired them. Several more are still being investigated.

Also qukte a few videos of IDF soldiers boasting of killing civilians

As I said upthread, inexcusable but understandable.

also mass grave found in Northern Gaza, execjted?

AFAICT, so far this is what the Arab press (e.g., Al Jazeera) is claiming. They have called for an independent, international investigation, which I support. Let's get the facts.

[Udon Map]

Also, Saudi Arabia has decided no deal with Israel unless a free Palestinian state created.

"The Kingdom has communicated its firm position to the US administration that there will be no diplomatic relations with Israel unless an independent Palestinian state is recognised on the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital," read the statement published by the official Saudi Press Agency.

Obviously that's not going to happen. Israel is not going to give east Jerusalem to the Palestinians. But this is what the Saudi government is saying publicly. It pretty much has to say that publicly. Nevertheless, according to Sec. of State Blinken, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman "reiterated Saudi Arabia's strong interest in pursuing normalization during their meeting in Riyadh."

https://www.barrons.com/news/saudi-says ... e-b868d936

What governments say publicly is often (usually?) very different from what they say privately.

[jackspratt]

This is the report rick refers to above.

https://www.channel4.com/news/israels-e ... s-examined

It is pretty clear the UN has not substantiated the claims of UNRWA involvement in the October 7 massacre, otherwise there would be no need for the investigation currently underway by the UN Office of Internal Oversight Services (OIOS), the top UN investigatory agency.

Also a very interesting report here https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east ... main-murky

[Udon Map]

It is pretty clear the UN has not substantiated the claims of UNRWA involvement in the October 7 massacre, otherwise there would be no need for the investigation currently underway by the UN Office of Internal Oversight Services (OIOS), the top UN investigatory agency.

Nevertheless, the UN has terminated the employment contracts of nine people identified in the Israeli report. I would imagine that there was enough in the report to persuade the UN on these nine, and they're investigating the rest.

[jackspratt]

Or alternatively, out of an abundance of caution - see from about 5.30m into this report.



I am sure the actions of the sacked 9 will be part of the UN OIOS investigation. I'd be waiting for that report - after all, we have seen plenty of disinformation already in this war.

[tamada]

Another day in the, "but Israel" thread.

[tamada]

Maybe time for a "Hamas under attack from Israel" thread since it's clear that for some folks, the former is an independent nation, forged in the blood, sweat, tears and sacrifices of their forebears and fighting for their survival too.

[jackspratt]

I don't think anyone is silly enough to imagine HAMAS is a nation, of any description.

[tamada]

I don't think anyone is silly enough to imagine HAMAS is a nation, of any description.

Oh yes there is.

(and you thought pantomime season was over?)

[jackspratt]

I don't think anyone is silly enough to imagine HAMAS is a nation, of any description.

Oh yes there is.

You seem to be the only one who is suggesting it - do you have any evidence?

[Udon Map]

Or alternatively, out of an abundance of caution - see from about 5.30m into this report.

I would say unlikely. One doesn't typically fire people with no evidence, among other reasons it could open them up to legal action.

But IMO the whole thing is ridiculous anyway. The Palestinians have been refugees longer than anyone else in the history of the world. Refugee is supposed to be a temporary status. In all other cases, refugees form and build their own country (which the Palestinians have repeatedly refused to do unless Israel ceases to exist), they are taken in by one or more other countries, or some other solution. As I asked upthread, where are their Arab brethren who profess such concern for them?

The problem is that it serves the purposes of their leaders for them to remain as refugees. Their leaders have billions of dollars, dating all the way back to Arafat. They live in luxury far from Gaza, the land which they proclaim to be theirs. Their wealth has been built, and continues so, by stealing massive amounts of the foreign aid meant to better the lives of their people, and by imposing taxes on the Palestinians.

https://thearabweekly.com/hamas-leaders ... ans-suffer

The problem is Hamas, and as long as it continues to exist, there will be no possibility of peace on the region, or peace for the Palestinian people.

[tamada]

I don't think anyone is silly enough to imagine HAMAS is a nation, of any description.

Oh yes there is.

You seem to be the only one who is suggesting it - do you have any evidence?

Yes, the Ayatollah something-or-other and his acolytes.

And those that think the sun shines out of his arris.

In other news, they also think the Houthis are the rightful possessors of Yemen. Maybe you've missed how the Houthis have turned their drones on Red Sea shipping "in support of Hamas" who, as you may or may not acknowledge, seek the total destruction of Israel and the annihilation of all Jews.

[jackspratt]

The problem is Hamas, and as long as it continues to exist, there will be no possibility of peace on the region, or peace for the Palestinian people.

I agree - but as it is unlikely that Hamas can be completely destroyed, even while killing an even more significant percentage of the Palestinian population than already.

And while it politically suits Netanyahu and his extremist government to keep fighting, and slaughtering, rather than negotiating a long-term solution that sidelines Hamas, will mean the continuation of the awful status quo.

[jackspratt]

I don't think anyone is silly enough to imagine HAMAS is a nation, of any description.

Oh yes there is.

You seem to be the only one who is suggesting it - do you have any evidence?

Yes, the Ayatollah something-or-other and his acolytes.

And those that think the sun shines out of his arris.

In other news, they also think the Houthis are the rightful possessors of Yemen. Maybe you've missed how the Houthis have turned their drones on Red Sea shipping "in support of Hamas" who, as you may or may not acknowledge, seek the total destruction of Israel and the annihilation of all Jews.

So you don't have any evidence that anyone (besides your good self) has suggested the terrorist organisation known as Hamas is a nation.

In other news, do red herrings live in the Red Sea?

[Udon Map]

The problem is Hamas, and as long as it continues to exist, there will be no possibility of peace on the region, or peace for the Palestinian people.

I agree - but as it is unlikely that Hamas can be completely destroyed, even while killing an even more significant percentage of the Palestinian population than already.

And while it politically suits Netanyahu and his extremist government to keep fighting, and slaughtering, rather than negotiating a long-term solution that sidelines Hamas, will mean the continuation of the awful status quo.

I sort of agree. I don't see a long-term solution, or even a short-term one, that sidelines Hamas.

One of the many unfortunate results of this war is that it has enabled Netanyahu to delay his criminal trial indefinitely.

[tamada]

I don't think anyone is silly enough to imagine HAMAS is a nation, of any description.

Oh yes there is.

You seem to be the only one who is suggesting it - do you have any evidence?

Yes, the Ayatollah something-or-other and his acolytes.

And those that think the sun shines out of his arris.

In other news, they also think the Houthis are the rightful possessors of Yemen. Maybe you've missed how the Houthis have turned their drones on Red Sea shipping "in support of Hamas" who, as you may or may not acknowledge, seek the total destruction of Israel and the annihilation of all Jews.

So you don't have any evidence that anyone (besides your good self) has suggested the terrorist organisation known as Hamas is a nation.

In other news, do red herrings live in the Red Sea?

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/midd ... cks-Report

Expresses support for "Palestinian" attacks? But who's doing the actual attacking here? Hamas of course. And they are fighting for the freedom of the hapless, homeless Palestinians to rule their own land? Right. Of course they are.

Hamas governs Gaza, they OWN Gaza. The Palestinian cause, the Palestinian nation, like their people crowded in refugee camps and hospitals, is a front, a cover, a subterfuge. Hamas wants to rule on the East Bank too, as Hamas. Because, after all these years and billions in foreign backing, the fake nation called Palestine can't agree to differ among themselves. It is shown for what it is, a grand illusion, divided and shattered by tribal and religious factions and ultimately hijacked by the Ayatollahs.

Hezbollah and Hamas both seek to destroy Israel and kill all Jews. Then they can form another unholy caliphate, same as Isis tried and failed, and call it Palestine. Why call it Palestine? Because the soft, western romanticists and apologists have submerged themselves in the myth of a nation stolen, a lost tribe, the Nakba.

Daesh hated everyone and loved no one. Cast out from al-Qaeda, they didn't have the backing of an Iran and consumed themselves. It's a different story with Hamas and Hezbollah because they share the Ayatollahs wish of Israeli and Jewish extinction. Now the Houthis, stalemated in their domestic conquest, accept a helping hand that also steers them into helping someone else's fight first.

Israel has an army. Australia has an army, Japan has an army. Most nations have armies. If Palestine were a nation, it would have an army but it doesn't, does it? Hamas and Hezbollah have armies though.