Essentially Monthly Income Credit Issue + rant

[Brian Davis]

I feel the need to get something off my chest to somebody and ranting at my Thai wife probably doesn’t achieve much in her understanding, or appease me. If nothing more, this may be a heads up for anyone using ‘monthly income’ to apply for an extension.
Some background first. I’ve been here over 20 years and most of my applications for extension of stay have been based on marriage, although think there were a few years of using retirement. Applicants already know that there’s a lot more paperwork involved in using the former, as well as having to bring a witness along. I really got fed up with having to sign a tree’s worth of paper, in duplicate.
A while back now, in my naiveté, I thought I might suggest some streamlining of the marriage application process, to help applicants and Immigration. So I drew up a pro-forma, which would act as a facesheet to which all necessary paperwork would be attached. The facesheet would describe all possible documents with numbers and the documents actually used in any application would be numbered the same. The wording on the rubber stamp currently affixed (and requiring signature) on almost every document, would be written(translated too) on the facesheet only. If you follow, just one signature on the facesheet would suffice, in lieu of the need for numerous stamps and signatures. There would have to be a numbered security tag affixed……….So, I took this idea to Udon Immigration, in the hope that some officer might get some inspiration and use the idea or something similar and ‘push it up the ladder’. As I said naïve. Spoke to one officer, who understood what I was suggesting, but really gave me to understand there was no way a senior officer would be seen to act on an idea from a junior etc. Sad. The officer said he/she had ideas of ‘changing the world’ too, but…..
On to today. I decided to apply for my extension on the basis of retirement, because it involves less hassle – well, usually. This was to be based on monthly income. I had previously made an enquiry of moving from marriage to retirement and was told ‘no problem’ with a much reduced list of documents.(In retrospect, the officer – and the one I was to argue with today- probably thought it was a ‘800,000 in the bank’ situation, rather than monthly income ).

I thought the process was straightforward, so I was surprised to hear the reception officer telling me I didn’t have sufficient money in two of the months. (I had provided a bank statement going back to January, 2023). The more senior officer was insistent there had to be income of at least 65,000 baht every month and had drawn lines under each month to total it. It turned out that for two months, my main pension normally paid at end of month, had been credited on the1st or 2nd day of the following month. I have no idea why this occurred – perhaps a bank holiday in UK or Thailand, a hiccough in the system? I argued that the payments were there, that for whatever reason, they had ‘slipped’ just the one or two days. An examination showed that in both cases, there were two main pension payments in each of the following months. I argued that taking an annual total, I had well above 800,000 baht, particularly at current rates.
It seemed for a while she was going to be inflexible over what seemed a minor issue. She said at one point, the one day late credit would be accepted, but not two days late? In suggesting that I did maintain a fair balance in the bank anyway and could we use the ‘money in bank/monthly income’ option (i.e. the monthly income figure could then be less), she said I’d need confirmation of my income from the Embassy?
Over 20 years here permanently (other than short holiday breaks in nearby countries), piles of paper records over the years, presumably a pretty extensive computer record – surely enough to prove I have enough money to live here?
Anyway, after referral to yet another senior officer, they agreed to retirement.
I’d been in there nearly 2½ hours before the processing officer (who hadn’t been involved in the earlier fuss) had completed the application. I can’t but feel my paperwork went to the bottom of the pile! All around me, I could hear ‘that will be 2,000 baht’ without shame to other applicants. (I accept some don’t know the correct fee, some aren’t bothered, or want to keep the peace). The officer asked me for 2,600 baht. I asked if she was going to give me a receipt for that amount, at which point she whispered to her colleague something which I imagine translated as “this one hasn’t just got off the plane, he’s a sticky s**t, or both). To me, it was suddenly 1,900 baht, and sounded like “we won’t let you change again”.
Incidentally, I’m quite generous with my tips to waiting, petrol station staff etc. But I’m not going along with uniformed officers demanding respect from me, but at the same time using their positions to top up their income. I’d pay a lot more with a receipt – use the extra from fees to increase officer salaries, if they are that poor.
Fortunately, I just caught the 90 day guy before he departed for lunch, else another hour’s wait.
Next? I have to obtain a new passport, so transferring the immigration info from old to new will be necessary. Wait for ‘that’s 500 baht if you want it now, free if you come back next week’. Wow, it’s 10 years since I last had that argument! Again, happy to pay a fee, but give me a receipt.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

I'm glad that I live in Khon Kaen.

[tamada]

I'm glad that I live in Khon Kaen.

How does the annual retirement extension renewal using the monthly income method go at the Khon Kaen immigration office?

[deankham]

I'm glad that I live in Khon Kaen.

So are all the members who live in Udon.

Sorry I'll get my coat....back to the topic in hand, my apologies for the derail.

[sometimewoodworker]

I feel the need to get something off my chest to somebody and ranting at my Thai wife probably doesn’t achieve much in her understanding, or appease me. If nothing more, this may be a heads up for anyone using ‘monthly income’ to apply for an extension.

Well!!! Having been here for the length of time you say you should already understand the way the system works!

No one least of all a lower rank officer is going to be able to change or suggest a change to a superior officer and have it acted on.
Had you had a relationship with a top level officer and talked to them privately there might have been a faint chance of some minor change, very unlikely as all the marriage documents are reviewed in Khon Kaen so everything must be signed.

Continuing on, you were also lucky that they allowed you to break the rule that states “minimum of 65,000 transfer EVERY MONTH” so just because you have 200,000 one month but only 40,000 the next doesn’t matter, you don’t have the minimum 65,000 EVERY MONTH. That you have been here 1 year or 40 years doesn’t matter and you know it. You also know that a brown envelope with a substantial tea money contributed can get a high level officer to exercise their discretion.

You also know full well that the only receipts given are for the listed charges. So no receipt for a 500 stamp of course not. Don’t like it then don’t get the stamps changed and go through immigration with both passports. No problem.

There is so much whining in your post you need some really smelly cheese like Trou du Cru or Vieux Lille to add to it.


Was there any real point to the post?

[Potamoi]

If it makes you feel any better, my 468 pages for my Non-B visa extension went in on 30Jan for pre submission.

Today when stopped in for the third time this year was told will have an answer back on Monday (generally they will want some copied pages better centered or an additional requirement stamp from Labour depth or some other add-on by Monday 12Feb. Then on Tuesday the 13th (last day of extension validity) they will ask me to come in to officially apply, pay the 1900 and sign each and every page. Once submitted, they will make an appointment to visit me at my workplace and interview two employees with their ID cards as well as the Managing Director (my wife). Photos and smiles all around, and we make them sign our visitor log book.

30 days later the 1 year extension will be issued but in the meantime they will make at least one panicked call to get one or two more documents newly added. Generally 5 trips to Imm for this process in Nong Khai which is streamline down from the first year we did it in 2016 which was like 30 trips to IMM. One year we even took a UPS (for printer power), an inkjet and a laptop with us along with the official company stamp so we could make the documents they suddenly needed in the back of my Pajero in the carpark. Easier now as the senior officers changed.

Since they always say BKK needs to make final approval, I can't see them changing things from the bottom up and certainly not going to make it easier for the visa holder. I must say that they are much more respectful and friendly than they were in 2016 and 2017 but yes, it is lots of documents in exactly the right order that makes it go smoother.

Changing passports last year was easy peasy and no fee.

I do hear lots of discussion on the forums of the hardships in getting retirement and marriage visa extensions and can only say that is sounds pretty easy to me in comparison.

[tamada]

I feel the need to get something off my chest to somebody and ranting at my Thai wife probably doesn’t achieve much in her understanding, or appease me. If nothing more, this may be a heads up for anyone using ‘monthly income’ to apply for an extension.

Well!!! Having been here for the length of time you say you should already understand the way the system works!

No one least of all a lower rank officer is going to be able to change or suggest a change to a superior officer and have it acted on.
Had you had a relationship with a top level officer and talked to them privately there might have been a faint chance of some minor change, very unlikely as all the marriage documents are reviewed in Khon Kaen so everything must be signed.

Continuing on, you were also lucky that they allowed you to break the rule that states “minimum of 65,000 transfer EVERY MONTH” so just because you have 200,000 one month but only 40,000 the next doesn’t matter, you don’t have the minimum 65,000 EVERY MONTH. That you have been here 1 year or 40 years doesn’t matter and you know it. You also know that a brown envelope with a substantial tea money contributed can get a high level officer to exercise their discretion.

You also know full well that the only receipts given are for the listed charges. So no receipt for a 500 stamp of course not. Don’t like it then don’t get the stamps changed and go through immigration with both passports. No problem.

There is so much whining in your post you need some really smelly cheese like Trou du Cru or Vieux Lille to add to it.


Was there any real point to the post?

Christ on a bike. After all my years here, 'there' are lots of things I can put up with or turn a blind eye to that would make me the consummate 'Thai apologist' be it bad driving, queue-jumping, land office pedantry, political buffoonery and a lamentable education system.

One thing I will not give a free pass to is the RTP and especially the coterie of fat, indolent and largely ignorant sloths that staff their immigration offices up and down the country, but especially the bent and the gormless that man (and woman) the desks at their Udon Thani branch. Even their shirts are the same color as something you would avoid stepping in.

I'm with the OP.

Rant over.

[Brian Davis]

STWW. A response from you was inevitable. There’s no doubt you are a fountain of knowledge about Immigration and its’ procedures. What a pity your replies have that arrogant, know it all, put down style. You should take a leaf out of the Bob Helm book. This unnecessary sentence rather sums you up – “There is so much whining in your post you need some really smelly cheese like Trou du Cru or Vieux Lille to add to it.” A touch of ‘Heh, look at me’, I think.

“Well!!! Having been here for the length of time you say you should already understand the way the system works!” ... Yes, I agree. My point? Corruption rules, but it doesn’t mean I just fall in line and accept what is wrong. There are various anti-corruption initiatives set up, which appear to suggest that some Thai actually know it’s wrong, but little ever happens. The movement of erring government officials, in the police, in teaching etc. only to other locations or inactive posts, rather than being kicked out, says it all.

“No one least of all a lower rank officer is going to be able to change or suggest a change to a superior officer and have it acted on.Had you had a relationship with a top level officer and talked to them privately there might have been a faint chance of some minor change, very unlikely as all the marriage documents are reviewed in Khon Kaen so everything must be signed.” ..........
Yes, agree. My point? As I say, a sad situation that any bright ideas from a junior officer to improve a system probably won’t go anywhere. I suggest promotion is gained by who you know, payment or favours, rather than ability.

“You also know full well that the only receipts given are for the listed charges. So no receipt for a 500 stamp of course not. Don’t like it then don’t get the stamps changed and go through immigration with both passports. No problem.” ...

My point? That there’s a reluctance to list ‘other services’ with fees officially and throughout the Immigration Service, to then increase officers’ salaries. Why? Because officers make more money by charging what they want unofficially, no receipt, often to foreigners who have no choice but to pay up to get the paperwork etc. they need.

“You also know that a brown envelope with a substantial tea money contributed can get a high level officer to exercise their discretion.” ........
Exercise their discretion. That’s one way of putting it. I call it bent.

Continuing on, you were also lucky that they allowed you to break the rule that states “minimum of 65,000 transfer EVERY MONTH” so just because you have 200,000 one month but only 40,000 the next doesn’t matter, you don’t have the minimum 65,000 EVERY MONTH. That you have been here 1 year or 40 years doesn’t matter and you know it........

It’s almost amusing that, at times, Immigration Officers insist to dot every i and cross every t, but ‘something slipped across the desk’, can change these strict rules/procedures. My point is that I’ve proved for some time that I have enough money to live in Thailand. I have well over the annual figure of 800,000 baht needed , albeit by income alone, or a combination of income and bank balance. I can’t believe that even you STWW can’t see that my main pension arriving just one or two days ‘late’ is insignificant and requires a little common sense and flexibility to be used by an Immigration Officer, in lieu of all the fuss. The other 10 months are fine. The money arriving a day or two late is not suddenly making me destitute, or,indeed, being a problem or undesirable to Thailand. Red tape, bloody-mindedness and inability to think outside the box.
My point was essentially to warn any other applicants using the monthly income to watch out for a possible problem and checking the date of credits to their bank account carefully.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

I'm glad that I live in Khon Kaen.

So are all the members who live in Udon.

Sorry I'll get my coat....back to the topic in hand, my apologies for the derail.

That's a good one. It's made my day.

[Brian Davis]

.......There is so much whining in your post you need some really smelly cheese like Trou du Cru or Vieux Lille to add to it.

It's just occurred to me that, unusually, I completed missed your play on words (whine, wine) and perhaps your intention to inject some humour. My apologies, therefore, for an element of my previous reply. Not being a wine drinker very often and no particular liking for cheese, I didn't put one and one together. I can tell you the left back for Accrington Stanley though! For me at least, there is a bad smell in the Immigration Office.

[semperfiguy]

The only logical explanation for Immigration Officers being so inflexible on matters that we deem so insignificant is simply to position themselves to suggest that a "tea money" contribution can make all the problems go away. Their priority in processing any transaction is to look for a way to "trip you up" so that they can suggest a direct payment under the table or send you off to an agent so they can make their finder's fee from that agent. None of us are exempt from their tricks, regardless of how long we have lived here in Thailand. We are being delusional if we think for one minute that being a familiar face in the Immigration Office earns one any degree of loyalty or privilege. It's all about the money!

[Bandung_Dero]

We are being delusional if we think for one minute that being a familiar face in the Immigration Office earns one any degree of loyalty or privilege. It's all about the money!

Your right there!

Looking at the last 5 extension stamps in my passport they ALL have been counter signed (initialed) by the same Supervisor. I wont go into it again but during my last application, in December, I went through the 3rd degree at the reception desk having to prove the source of my Aus. funds going through Wise every month.

More and more hoops every year to a point where it will become impossible without "tea money".

[Doodoo]

This is why the Retirement 8000,000 is the way to go, 10 years and not once a problem . In and out 45 minutes to 1 hour

[Chriss]

Brian, can I just say, being there when you were ‘discussing’ the predicament you didn’t do yourself any favours saying in a somewhat loud, irate manner with outstretched arms “Why can’t you people think outside the box” heckles were up behind the counter straight away and much whispering between the IO’s was heard… such that the, I don’t know what her title is, lady in charge in the far right corner involved herself…

I do understand your frustration though….personally I don’t see the problem with the marriage extension paperwork, half an hour printing, a quick trip to the Umphur and bank and Bob becomes a relative again…

[Laan Yaa Mo]

This is why the Retirement 8000,000 is the way to go, 10 years and not once a problem . In and out 45 minutes to 1 hour

8000,000 what, Doodoo? Pineapples?

[Bandung_Dero]

8000,000 what, Doodoo? Pineapples?

Ahh, the perfect human who has NEVER made a typo. Get a life!

[Brian Davis]

Brian, can I just say, being there when you were ‘discussing’ the predicament you didn’t do yourself any favours saying in a somewhat loud, irate manner with outstretched arms “Why can’t you people think outside the box” heckles were up behind the counter straight away and much whispering between the IO’s was heard… such that the, I don’t know what her title is, lady in charge in the far right corner involved herself…

I do understand your frustration though….personally I don’t see the problem with the marriage extension paperwork, half an hour printing, a quick trip to the Umphur and bank and Bob becomes a relative again…

Thanks for your reply, Chris.
I am very aware of the advice not to 'lose face' when dealing with Thai generally, but I only have so much patience when banging my head against a brick wall. We're all made differently! I had no enthusiasm to go back and prepare a marriage application, which was suggested. Sorry, if I'm duplicating here. In my defence, I had been told previously by the 'lady in charge in the far right corner' that there was no problem in changing from marriage to retirement, but I accept she probably thought I had a lump sum in the bank, not monthly income. I had used marriage as the basis for many years, generating nearly 80 sheets of paper each time, most of which required that rubber stamp and my signature. And the need to drag along a witness. Phew. It seems Immigration is still in the dark ages.In this technological age, it seems crazy to start completely again, when there's piles of almost identical paperwork and a computer record. As you see, I actually spent some time putting together a suggested 'streamlining' to help both sides, but, of course, got nowhere. The main point was the initial insistence to 'go by the book' and lack of flexibility. Honestly, in a full year, what problem did a one/two day late payment of pension cause? It's not as if the money hadn't arrived. Actually, if the lines had been drawn mid-month to mid-month (and the timing of my pension payments), wouldn't that have solved the problem, or am I getting muddled?
Additionally, there's my refusal to go along with corruption, even if it means making a rod for my own back. A principle. Thailand's biggest problem? Following a row ten years ago over old/new passports, I'm sure the computer screen flashes every time I appear. I rather hope the result might be they don't mess with me, but the result may be the opposite.
Incidentally, there was one other applicant brave (or stupid?) to agree with me when I ranted 'can't think outside the box'.
Thanks for your input anyway.

[Brian Davis]

After all the heavy stuff, how about some humour. On the subject of 'thinking outside the box', this clip reminds me of somewhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0YGZPycMEU

[Laan Yaa Mo]

8000,000 what, Doodoo? Pineapples?

Ahh, the perfect human who has NEVER made a typo. Get a life!

I've made tons of them, haven't you?

[Doodoo]

Cdn dollar the way its going